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  #21  
Old 11-13-2007
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Rockter will become famous soon enough
We have had this discussion so many times.

I sailed a modified full keel, a Union 36, from Houston to Scotland. It tracked well, and was stable. It does not go to weather well, but no-one in their right mind would want to go to weather in an Atlantic breeze of any strength. It's awful, and beats the heck out of the boat, whatever the boat is.

Certainly, a deep fin leaves me standing in light airs, and out-points me every time, but in the rough stuff, downwind, watch that helmsman, correcting, and correcting. Upwind, neither of us want to do it anyway.

Also, the long keel inherently has to endure less stress... now I did not say force... I said stress. We don't snap off so easily. Often we're cast into the glass so we have no keel bolts. We are definitely slower but more stable directionally.

Give me the long keel, or modified full, every time...

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Good luck, what ever you choose.

Rockter.
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  #22  
Old 11-13-2007
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As for getting underway from a quay wall or a dock... If the Current and wind are nil, push off with a boat hook. Any boat up to 50' should be easy to do so. We did this with Navy launches all the time.
Think on how you want to move away from pier side, especially if you have a bow sprite, stern overhang or exposed rudder and other delicate equipment hanging off your stern.
The name of the game is: No matter what kind of keel you have; Practice you landings and underways on flotsams, jetsams and protected pier faces. And train you significant other in doing the same. You may be incapacitated for some reason or other, and the family or friends will have to bring your boat in to the dock.
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  #23  
Old 11-13-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
...but warping can put the bow where you want it even in contrary winds...

Valente,

What is warping? I'm not familiar with that, and anything that can help me get the bow where I want it is something I'd like to know more about
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  #24  
Old 11-13-2007
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Warping is a term that describes moving a boat using lines... not just sails or the engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlowinSouth View Post
Valente,

What is warping? I'm not familiar with that, and anything that can help me get the bow where I want it is something I'd like to know more about
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Last edited by sailingdog; 11-14-2007 at 04:42 PM.
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  #25  
Old 11-13-2007
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what US Naval Academy researcher ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
...
Then there is the whole grounding issue. The popular perception isthat wing keels are harder to free is accurate. This seems to be born out by discussions that I have had with towboat skippers on the Chesapeake and with a researcher who worked on a project at the US Naval Academey. According to both wing keels were extremely harder to free. Straight fins were much easier to free, especially when heeled. There also is some evidence that bulbs may be easier to free than fin keels....Jeff[/FONT]
Last year in a similar thread I challenged the claim that research was done at the Naval Academy on wing keel groundings. To my knowledge that claim has yet to be substantiated by anyone. I went to the effort of inquiring at the Academy to find the principal investigator for their keel grounding study. In fact it was a fin vs. bulb comparison in the study. I communicated with that professor and he was not aware of any such WING KEEL grounding research.

Naturally, I am curious as to the identity of the researcher at the Academy who has done a wing keel grounding study.
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  #26  
Old 11-14-2007
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Wing this

Wing keels were injected into the mix as a means of gaining lift when constrained by draft. Anyone who sails the Chesapeake and it's gunkholes with a monohull is dealing with draft constraints regularly.

In the last eleven years I have experience with both the wing and fin designs on my own vessels. I've found the wing to work well sailing upwind, but one definitely pays a performance price from the unused wetted wing surface once the wing levels as you go off the wind. To compensate for this I don't sail the wing as deeply off the wind and that seems to help with VMG, similar to the racer that doesn't sail the extreme example of dead downwind in less than heavy winds.

As for grounding issues, I have come up with some interesting observations from my own groundings in the muddy Chesapeake. I find a grounded fin is easier to back out, whereas a wing is harder to back out but has another escape route not as easily available to a fin. I've discovered completely on my own that under power and helm a grounded wing can be precisely and easily pivoted deirectly towards deep water, and then "walked" off by slowly applying helm back and forth. A grounded fin is much less maneuverable.

Though shallower draft, a wing is most vulnerable to grounding when level and the fin is most vulnerable to grounding when heeled. I've grounded a wing when heeled under sail and as soon as I dropped sail, the wing leveled and I floated free. Another time I simply fell off the wind a little and the wing cleared as it leveled somewhat. Now if you ground a fin when heeled, the only way to reduce draft is to heel, but what if you're were already heeled ? I've been there and it's a tough one.

I've only called a tow boat once and it was for a fuel problem. However IF I did need a tow off of a grounding with my current wing keel, I'd insist as part of the contract that it be pulled off by towing somewhat side to side as I've done successfully using power and helm.

It's silly to simply brand a wing a bad grounding risk. Whether you've got a wing or a fin, you need to be aware of it's capabilities. Unfortunately for those inexperienced with wing keels, intuition doesn't bridge the knowledge gap. From Jeff H's towboat operator conversations, it sounds like the inexperience extends well into the towing fleet. Last year I read about a tow boat operator who spent a few hours trying to heel a wing off of a grounding !

Whatever you're sailing, don't ground at near high tide or you may really need that tow.
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Last edited by captnnero; 11-14-2007 at 12:37 AM.
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  #27  
Old 11-14-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boasun View Post
As for getting underway from a quay wall or a dock... If the Current and wind are nil, push off with a boat hook. Any boat up to 50' should be easy to do so. We did this with Navy launches all the time.
Think on how you want to move away from pier side, especially if you have a bow sprite, stern overhang or exposed rudder and other delicate equipment hanging off your stern.
The name of the game is: No matter what kind of keel you have; Practice you landings and underways on flotsams, jetsams and protected pier faces. And train you significant other in doing the same. You may be incapacitated for some reason or other, and the family or friends will have to bring your boat in to the dock.
Sensible advice. I usually push off "manually" with the engine in neutral...even a 15 ton boat can be moved by a 45 kg. woman who puts her back into it. If you've got a reasonable set of fenders out, it's hard to hurt your boat or others unless you are going too fast.

I attempt most of the time to aim the boat in neutral and coast to a stop. I'm a big fan of making hard turns or "S"-turns to bleed off speed so I am coasting to a dock at less than one knot. That way, the merest two or three-second shot of reverse will stop the boat dead in the water where I want to be. I always consider, however, that the main point is not to fully stop, but to get a good spring line on in a timely fashion. When I see my wife has jumped onto the dock with spring in hand, I leave the helm and go aft to hand her the stern line and then run forward. We customarily dock with four lines, and double the bow and stern lines if we expect high winds.
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  #28  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlowinSouth View Post
Valente,

What is warping? I'm not familiar with that, and anything that can help me get the bow where I want it is something I'd like to know more about
It's leaving a loop of line on at the bow or stern to pivot a departing vessel using wind, current or engine. The idea is that you let the boat do what it wants to do anyway, but under the control of a line you handle. For instance, if you were on a wall in a line of boats and your stern was facing into the wind, you could have a warp at your bow and let the stern fall off into the current. Then you could ease the line as you applied power in reverse, clearing the boat that was ahead of you, but with the advantage of having the wind now on your bow, as you've pivoted nearly 180 degrees.

http://www.boatingmag.com/article.as...&section_id=12
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  #29  
Old 11-14-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBzeer View Post
Simply from my observations, and not from any theoretical standpoint, if you'll be doing a lot of manuvering (in and out of slips, narrow channels, etc) a fin would be better. If you're passagemaking then the full would seem to work better. That though, is simply my opinion.

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I guess that's the point I was fumbling towards, PB. I work on the premise that in the immediate future my cruising will be mainly coastal and spending around every second or third day at anchor, rather than ocean passages. Ergo, the compromise of a fin/skeg over a fin/spade seems to make sense. On the other hand if the "right" boat ended up having a full keel I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Full keel also is going to draw less than a fin under normal circumstances and that can have its advantages of course.
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Old 11-14-2007
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A fin or a full keel isn't going to have much effect at anchor, I would say. At dock, yes.

My 33', 9,200 lbs. fin keeler draws four more inches of depth than my 41', 29,500 lbs. full keeler. I've actually made use of those four inches to clear into docks with a measured six feet of depth...I draw about 5 foot 8 as currently laden.

It's really apples and oranges in some respects, though. I think a strongly built longish fin with a skeg-hung rudder is near ideal, but it's not the most popular design in the "economy bracket", possibly because it makes the hull mold quite complex.
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