Full Keel Vs. Fin or Modified Full Keel

[tdw]

Originally Posted by Valiente

A fin or a full keel isn't going to have much effect at anchor, I would say. At dock, yes.

My 33', 9,200 lbs. fin keeler draws four more inches of depth than my 41', 29,500 lbs. full keeler. I've actually made use of those four inches to clear into docks with a measured six feet of depth...I draw about 5 foot 8 as currently laden.

It's really apples and oranges in some respects, though. I think a strongly built longish fin with a skeg-hung rudder is near ideal, but it's not the most popular design in the "economy bracket", possibly because it makes the hull mold quite complex.

Not thinkin' V. Of course I should have said tied up rather than at anchor. Daffier than normal today, big night last evening, teddibly teddibly drunk and paying for it today.

We agree on the fin/skeg business. I've always liked the look of the V40 underwater profile. Long fin with skeg. Should track pretty well, draft kept to a reasonable depth, nice solid skeg for protection. Hard to beat.

[BlowinSouth]

Originally Posted by Valiente

It's leaving a loop of line on at the bow or stern to pivot a departing vessel using wind, current or engine. The idea is that you let the boat do what it wants to do anyway, but under the control of a line you handle. For instance, if you were on a wall in a line of boats and your stern was facing into the wind, you could have a warp at your bow and let the stern fall off into the current. Then you could ease the line as you applied power in reverse, clearing the boat that was ahead of you, but with the advantage of having the wind now on your bow, as you've pivoted nearly 180 degrees.

http://www.boatingmag.com/article.as...&section_id=12

Thanks Valiente. I've actually done that, or something similar, I didn't know it was called warping. My boat didn't like to back to port, it wanted to go back to starboard and I needed to go back to port to get out of the slip and would leave a line attached to the dock, hold on to the line from the port side of cockpit and put the boat in reverse this swung the bow to starboard as I pulled the stern to port, then I would toss the line back on the dock.

But I see that a loop would have worked even better, I could have just pulled the line back on board. I like it!

[Valiente]

There's a few of them out there design-wise, favoured by Bob Perry and Ted Brewer and a few others. They make the boat more expensive, which is probably the biggest reason they aren't more popular, but also because they are slippy enough for the performance cruiser/racer types, who want fins and spades, and they aren't "trad" enough for those who want a Contessa 26 with a thyroid condition, or who think everything made since the Westsail 32 is crap.

Wrong. Boats have never been as good as they are today. Unfortunately, those great boats are very expensive! There's a lot of boats out there also that are too lightly built to provide a safe or endurable ride for cruisers who have to anticipate poor conditions at some point. Of course, the proportion of boat owners who actually get caught in real gales or worse is extremely small.

I am growing to appreciate the sailing qualities of my semi-new full keeler (undoing a hundred connections in the engine bay yesterday contributed to this), but I consider myself relatively clear-eyed when it comes to its shortcomings, or rather insufficiencies in terms of desirable attributes.

We got it to hold the gear, tankage and provisions necessary for both extended cruising off the beaten track, and for comfortable anchoring. It's a cross between an SUV and a mini-van at sea, in essence, but there's a lot you can do in a mini-van that would be very difficult to do in any other kind of vehicle. I suspect when all is said and done, I will in fact make passages as fast as any others, particularly if I stay out in heavier weather making distance when other lighter boats have to slow down or turn back. I'm not talking about storms or even strong gales, but the 25-35 knots that almost all cruisers are capable of handling structurally, but which can be quite uncomfortable if not exhausting for some crews in lighter boats to handle.

[Valiente]

Originally Posted by BlowinSouth

But I see that a loop would have worked even better, I could have just pulled the line back on board. I like it!

Exactly. That's warping as I understand it. I would make one suggestion, however: Use a polypropylene line as a warping line for the following reasons: a) it's stretchy and can take a shock load, which is useful coming off a dock that may be in motion in the oppositie direction of a boat under power; b) it's cheap enough that if you lose it or break it, it's no big deal; c) it floats, meaning that if you drop the loop or back over it, you might avoid fouling the prop, a situation I wouldn't wish on anyone who is in conditions requiring a warp in the first place.

On my boat with hank-on foresails, I used to have a No. 3 or equally modest genoa rigged ready to haul up in such conditions in case I had an engine failure or a fouled prop. Before I determined that a busted waterlift was hurting my engine, causing it to overheat and/or stall, I had to occasionally sail back into my dock, and the availability of at least one working sail to provide thrust saved me from unpleasantness on more than one occasion.

Since I fixed the problem, my engine on the old boat is very reliable and hasn't failed me once, but the cautionary instinct is still strong, and I usually have the sail cover off, the sail ties off or loosened and the main halyard rigged and ready to rise before I leave the dock on the new boat...just in case!

I recommend to everyone that they try all their usual maneuvers under sail alone (with the engine on in neutral). It is exceptionally good practice, very seamanlike, and you may like the effect it has on fellow yachties when you pick up a moor under sail alone.

[Tartan34C]

Originally Posted by Valiente

Of course, the proportion of boat owners who actually get caught in real gales or worse is extremely small.

But if you are the one to get caught out boat quality suddenly becomes very important.

I think there are more poorly made boats available today then ever before. At one time there was a clear distinction between day sailors and offshore cruisers but today lightly built unsuitable boats are being marketed as serious offshore capable boats. A lot of newcomers are joining the ranks of sailors and don’t have enough experience or skill to see the difference so they are setting out offshore and having trouble in record numbers.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

[Valiente]

Originally Posted by Tartan34C

But if you are the one to get caught out boat quality suddenly becomes very important.

I think there are more poorly made boats available today then ever before. At one time there was a clear distinction between day sailors and offshore cruisers but today lightly built unsuitable boats are being marketed as serious offshore capable boats. A lot of newcomers are joining the ranks of sailors and don’t have enough experience or skill to see the difference so they are setting out offshore and having trouble in record numbers.

I agree. That's why we got the boat we did. It's a "get you there" boat, not a "get you there in time for the barbeque and Jimmy Buffett impersonators" boat.

My comment should have perhaps read "the good boats of today are better than ever". My following comment was meant to convey that I don't consider the vast majority of production boats sold today to be anything more than well-appointed daysailers or coastal cruisers in 25 knots or less. I do believe that the advances in design and materials have made the top-end boats (Swans, etc.) very safe and comfortable, but how many can afford those?

I also agree that the wrong sailors are helming the wrong boats. Experience is limited in many cases; this is exactly why I want to crew a fair bit before we go, and my wife does as well. I feel confident in a gale on Lake Ontario, but they don't last long, so I need oceanic conditions of an adverse nature to see if I can do well on a well-found boat.

Today's production boats will fail sooner in heavy weather than the true bluewater boats of 30 years past due to the design compromises required to make a light, bright, wide and fast light-air cruiser fit for club racing. But the crews will fail before the boat in many cases, because the sort of person caught out by a squall in a Hunter 365 is not in my experience the sort of person liable to have the skill set to avoid calling a Mayday when the boat gets knocked down and all that unsecured nautical dishware goes flying.

[cockeyedbob]

Full keel careens nicely for a bottom scrub ... rub a dub ...

[tdw]

Originally Posted by cockeyedbob

Full keel careens nicely for a bottom scrub ... rub a dub ...

Hmmm..Wombat's PB was full keel, albeit cutaway forefoot and I'd have hated to try and careen the sucker. Whenever we slipped we had to velly velly carefull to tie down the stern cos she was a tad tippy towards the bow.

The current Womboat is fin but balances on the hard beautifully. For peace of mind I'd move the anchor chain to admidships but other than that I'd be quite happy to careen her.

On the slip this week we had a line running from the bow and tied off to the cradle but it really was not necessary. (see image in the 40' Pilot house thread.)