Pan vs. stick buit boats

[Rustyf]

A salesman recently tried to describe the difference between pan buit and stick built boats with the latter being more desirable. I have searched this site but cannot find a reference to those terms. Can anyone help with this? Thanks.

[camaraderie]

Just a guess but perhaps...
Pan built boats are fiberglass boats built in a mold or "pan" with layers of fiberglass and resin.

Stick built boats are boats built on a frame of ribs with planking or steel or ferrocement laid over the "sticks" of the ribs.

My guess is that the broker had a stick built boat in stock! (g) Tell us more!

[Rustyf]

Thanks. Not much more to say. I believe that he said that a Tartan 3500 was stick built and a new Jeanneau was pan built. I might have that backwards. It was a confusing conversation at several levels.

[JohnRPollard]

In the context you are using them, these terms refer to whether the interior furniture was built up entirely out of wood material (stick built), or was made primarily out of fibreglass (pan interior).

In the case of the pan interior, the general shape of most of the interior furniture is created by the fibrglass pan or pans (often there are several pieces for different sections of the boat). After the pans are dropped into the hull (before the deck is attached), they are then secured in place, and then the pans get trimmed off with varying degrees of wood.

Purists prefer stick-built interiors. The all-wood interior has a very rich feel. Also, on a stick built boat you arguably have better access to the hull in the event of damage, because you can tear/cut the interior woodwork away more easily. A downside to stick-built interiors is that they tend to make a fair bit of creeky/groany noise in a seaway.

Pan interiors reduce costs -- which is the primary reason for their use. They have other advantages in that when properly designed they can be used to greatly stiffen the hull and spread loads. Also, their interior surfaces tend to be less maintenance since they're coated with gelcoat and therefore easy to clean/wipe down.

Most series production boats have pan interiors because they can amortize the expense of investing in the tooling for the pans, and thereby reduce costs. Generally, the very high-end, low volume boats can't do this economically (or choose not to) so are stick built.

Our mid-range boat has a pan interior. It is heavily trimmed out with teak -- many folks don't realize there's a pan until they've been aboard for a while -- some never notice. Also, ours is well designed and permits access to the hull interior virtually everywhere. Our boat is stiff and does not work. I like this arrangment, so I would not necessarily agree that the all wood (stick built) interior is preferable.

[camaraderie]

In that context...I would agree that a stick built interior is GENERALLY superior to a pan mostly due to the access to the whole boat...wiring, plumbing, chain plates, hull interior etc.
But as John says...there is a heavy cost to stick built in RECENT vintage cruisers due to materials and labor. Many older boats with stick interiors simply reflect the building practices of their time. Interiors in either method can be most attractive...but having owned 4 pans and one stick...I much prefer the stick approach.

[pigslo]

A pan boat is built with a pan attached to the hull as a stiffiner instead of stringers. "wow, finally a question I can answer before sailingdog. Write this down gang. Is the dawg out of town or sump'in?
pigslo

[Rustyf]

Thanks guys for the informative and interesting responses. I am recently retires and am doing an extensive amount of due diligence before I buy my first cruiser. I am sure that I will have many more questions. Thanks again.

[Jeff_H]

Its not as cut and dry as all that and I am not sure the salesman really knows his stuff. What you are describing is the way that the boat is internally framed. Stick built is a house building terms that does not even apply to boats. The correct term in boats in hand laid up framing and tabbing, but the discussion is more detailed than implied above. Below is a section describing different approaches to fiberglassl structure from an article that I had written on fiberglass construction. Like most production boats, when you talk about Tartans and Jeaneaus, boh use a combination of hand laid up frames and tabbing, force grids and pan systems. Tartans tend to use more force grids and hand laid-up connections and less pan areas than the Jeaneau. The other thing which is a pretty new boat building feature is glued in bulkheads. While it is true that the fiberglass or the bulkhead will fail before the glue lets go, the reality of glued connections is that the small faying surfaces concentrate loads in a smaller area making failure of the joint, fatigue and hardspots more likely. Both Tartan and Jeaneau employ glued in bulkheads in their nwer boats, but again Jeaneau use of glued in components is more widespread.

FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic- the technical name for 'fiberglass' construction- sometimes also called GRP) had become the primary way that pleasure craft have been built since the late 1960’s. There are a lot of ways to build a FRP boat and a lot of variations on each method. The three most common are Monocoque, cored and framed. You often hear people use the term ‘Solid Glass Construction’. This is actually a very vague and not a terribly precise description of the structure of a FRP boat. The term ‘Solid Glass’ hull or construction is typically used to mean a boat that does not have a cored hull. A non-cored hull can be monocoque (the skin takes all of the loads and distributes them), like many small boats today and larger early fiberglass hulls, or else framed, as most modern boats are constructed today.

A cored hull is a kind of sandwich with high strength laminate materials on both sides of the panel where they do the most good and a lighter weight center material. Pound for pound, a cored hull produces a stronger boat. Cored hulls are generally more durable since they flex less and so experience less fatigue. Cored hulls can also be monocoque or framed.

Framing helps to stiffen a hull, distribute concentrated loads such as keel and rigging loads, and reduce the panel size, which helps to limit the size of the damage caused in a catastrophic impact. Framing can be in a number of forms. Glassed in longitudinal (stringers) and athwartship frames (floors and ring frames) provide a light, strong and very durable solution.

Molded ‘force grids’ are another form of framing. In this case the manufacturer molds a set of athwartship and longitudinal frames as a single unit in a mold in much the same manner as the rest of the boat is molded. Once the hull has been laid up the grid is glued in place. The strength of the connection depends on the contact area of the flanges on the grid and the type of adhesive used to attach the grid. This is a very good way to build a production boat but is not quite as strong as a hand glassed in framing system.

Another popular way to build a boat is with a molded in ‘pan’. This is can be thought of as force grid with an inner liner spanning between the framing. This has many of the good traits of a force grid but has its own unique set of problems. For one it adds a lot of useless weight. It is harder to properly adhere in place, and most significantly it blocks access to most of the interior of the hull. Pans can make maintenance much harder to do as every surface is a finished surface and so it is harder to run wires and plumbing. Adding to the problem with pans is that many manufacturers install electrical and plumbing components before installing the pan making inspection and repair of these items nearly impossible.

Glassed-in shelves, bulkheads, bunk flats, and other interior furnishings can often serve as a part of the framing system. These items are bonded in place with fiberglass strips referred to as ‘tabbing’ that lap onto the framing element and the hull or deck. Tabbing can be continuous all sides (including the deck), continuous on the hull only, or occur in short sections. Continuous all sides greatly increases the strength of the boat but may not be necessary depending on how the boat was originally engineered. The strength of the tabbing is also dependent on its thickness, surface area and the materials used. When these elements are wood they can often rot at the bottom of the component where the tabbing traps moisture against the wood.

[JohnRPollard]

Rusty,

Sometimes it's easier to explain with photos. Here I've posted pairs of photos, the first in each pair is from a Sabre 34 (stick built) and the second in each pair is from a Pacific Seacraft 34 (pan). The glossy white surfaces you see in the photos are usually the pan, but in some cases (both on the Sabre and the PSC) it is actually white formica on top of wood. Also, these two models do not necessarily offer the best contrast. In some cases, the use of the pan is much more glaring/evident.

Main Salon:





Galley:






Head:

[Jeff_H]

John, I hate to say it but those photos confuse the issue more than explain it. If you really want to show photos they are best taken in the bilge or in a locker. Pacific Seacrafts do use pans and so do Sabres, which also use force grids. Some early PSC's had glassed in frames, but early smaller PSC most were frameless, which in my opinion is the worst way to build a boat.

Respectfully,
Jeff