Pan vs. stick buit boats

[JohnRPollard]

Originally Posted by Jeff_H

John, I hate to say it but those photos confuse the issue more than explain it. If you really want to show photos they are best taken in the bilge or in a locker.

True, but photos of the bilge and lockers are hard to come by. I think these photos show the pan concept okay. I may be mistaken, but I gathered that Rusty's broker was trying to educate him not so much about the technical aspects of force grids, pans, etc, but rather was simply highlighting the two most common ways to build-out the interior of a boat hull and their respective merits.

I will mention an additional con I've encountered on our boat -- modifying interior geometry is not very easy to do. Basically you have to like the interior arrangement and live with it. On a stick-built interior, there is greater lattitude to do some rearranging.

Originally Posted by Jeff_H

Pacific Seacrafts do use pans and so do Sabres, which also use force grids. Some early PSC's had glassed in frames, but early smaller PSC most were frameless, which in my opinion is the worst way to build a boat. Respectfully,Jeff

Well, I suppose that's could be a topic for another thread. But I do know the PSC boats are generally acknowledged to have "pans". Whether the fibreglass interior components of the smallest models qualifies as a true pan I don't know, but irregardless they have certainly held up well, retained high resale value, and have logged countless ocean miles to their credit.

[blt2ski]

Now for my question on this, assuming one could buy a given boat, say a Tartan 3700 as an example, in all three of the interior built methods JeffH talked about. All three equally built cost etc. Is one truly better than another? or is it one of those, choose your personal pro vs con and rate accordingly? Kind of like I would put the steel vs lead keels, main sheet traveler on the cabin vs cockpit, fin vs full keel etc. All are good, all have bad points, choose accordingly.

Or is it where one version is better for a race boat, say a 1D35, vs a Cruiser racer like a C&C 115 vs coastal cruiserish boat like the T37/C36 vs a Tayana offshore built boat. Then one can see where one version is better to choose appropriate built interior?

For me any way, I see ea having pro's and cons, and choose based on your needs. As a pan or one with gelcoat interior, could be easier to maintain the cleanliness of it, ie take out the 409, spray and wipe with a paper towel. may be NOT a pro to all, but a pro to others. Where a complete wood interior would need more work to fix, ie revarnish the amount of wood it has vs the pan interior down the road. So a con for that interior. On the other hand, one with more wood might feel, and be warmer! a pro for that variety.

It should be noted I am doing a bit of thinking while typing, and my examples may not be real good or perfect.
marty

[Jeff_H]

To some extent a case can be made for each type of construction. From a strength to weight basis, and ease of inspection, maintenance and repair, and to a lesser extent the maximum carrying volume- nothing beats a carefully constructed glassed-in framing system with a mininimal amount of liners and pans. For that reason, it is by far the way to go for dedicated race boats, racer cruisers, and for purpose built offshore cruisers. But is a more expensive way to build a boat, and requires more care. Within the interior there are often compromises in how the interior of the hull is treated that tend to be labor intensive or less aesthetically pleasing to some. When you open lockers you see the exposed hull. If a boat with glassed in framing has a collision with the perverbial immovable object and the hull is breeched, the bare hull is visible, and there is a chance that perhaps the flow can be stemmed or at least reduced.

Coastal cruisers are another story. Here it is assumed that shelter and help is near by, and cost is often a more major factor than performance, carrying capacity, ease of maintenance or robustness. A fully lined hull (pan system) is a cheap way to build, especially if you are tooling up for a large production run. It does provide reasonable stiffness and longevity compared to fiberglass boat without framing. Pretty much wherever you look there is a smooth shiny surface. Labor and construction time is reduced. A high level of apparent fit and finish is easier to achieve. The surfaces of interior is easier to clean. But full liners (pans) add a lot of weight just where you don't want it. The structural elements are harder to fully adhere. Structural bonds are easier to dislodge and extremely difficult to repair. Mildew and mold can thrive behind the liners resulting in a smellier boat, and things spilled in the bilge can often get behind the liners as well. Long term repairs and upgrades are much more difficult since such items as hardware backing plates and bolts, wiring and plumbing are generally run behind the liners with access being next to imposible without altering the boats in ways that some combination of labor intensive and/or visually less than ideal. Ultimately a pan built boat has a more limited lifespan than a boat that uses primarily glassed-in components because over time the structural liners so separate from the hull and the structure of the boat is so greatly reduced and the cost of repair so high, that the boat has a negative value. Virtually all major value oriented boat builders, and many alledgedly high quality builders, have resorted to the extensive use of pans. To me, a fully lined boat is a deal buster, but for most casual sailors it is a reasonable compromise.

Force grids fall between the two. It allows some reduction in cost to build a comprehensive internal framing system, and yet it allows access to the hull for inspection, repairs and maintenance. It requires more labor to finish nicely but no where near as much as a glassed in framing system. While the force grid can get dislodged or damaged, it is sufficiently exposed making repairs and re-adhesion reasonably easy. It is typically more robust than most pan systems. And in my mind represents the preferable option to a fully lined boat, or glassed in framing for most coastal sailors, or racer cruisers. Another nice feature of a force grid, is that the interior furnishings do not have to be a part of the internal structure and so semi custom interior layouts are easier to produce. The same can be said for boats with glassed in internal frame systems, however by the typical convention for a glassed in framed boat the assumption is made that the interior components are generally designed as a part of the structure which can make customization a little harder. Unfortunately, over the years since its introduction in the 1970's, boats framed with force grids have become rarer in the marketplace as more and more higher end and mid-level builders have adopted fully lined interiors because of its visual appeal to new boat buyers.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[Rustyf]

Thanks to all who responded to making this a very interesting and informative thread. I am looking forward to my first sailboat purchase-a cruiser around 35 ft.-and my level of confidence that I can work through the many sailing problems that may arise is very high now that I know that knowledgeable and helpful people are available on this site to help.

[blt2ski]

Jeff,

While I personally am not absolutly sure of the differences, is there a site with pictures that show them clearly? or if I am picturing what you are writing, my 85 Jeanneau Arcadia I believe is the first or what you describe as the best system. The newest Jeanneau's I would put in the pan area of build. And the only boat I can picture that might be a force grid, would be an X-yacht.

Am I close?

Marty

[Sasha_V]

...my level of confidence that I can work through the many sailing problems that may arise is very high now that I know that knowledgeable and helpful people are available on this site to help.

yeah. and there's the rest of us too.

[pigslo]

The Ericsons used a grid system.
pigslo

[Jeff_H]

blt2ski,

I have never been sucessful in inserting photos in my posts here. At best I can attach some links....

Glassed in internal framing system:
In these two pictured if you look outboard above the berths you can see the glassed stringers, and in the photo of the quarter berth you can see the glassed in bulkhead acting as a transverse frame: http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...+berth&photo=6

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...+Berth&photo=7


Force grid:
This shot shows the interior of a boat built with a force grid. If you look at the area around the deck or near the main bulkhead you can see the molded transverse frames and longitidinal stringers.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...to_name=Saloon

Pan:
While this manufacturer uses a mix of force grid and pan systems; in these photos of the main cabin and forward head you can see the molded deck and furnishings, which include some transverse framing, which when glued into place form some of this boat's internal structure:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...k+to+Starboard

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...me=Fwd+head+II

I hope this is helpful,
Jeff

[US27inKS]

Not that I would ever try to confuse some of the fine pan built boats that I'm sure you've been looking at with a Mac, here's a good pic of the basic parts of a pan built boat. http://www.macgregor26.com/construct...arts_large.jpg

From left to right we have the hull, deck, headliner, and pan. On a boat without a pan, just delete the pan and possibly the headliner and replace with glassed in wood furniture.

[pigslo]

Actually my previous "stick built" boat had a 2x4 frame that was encapsulated and heavily tabbed to the hull. There was 1 small pan that made up the sole of the head but it also was attached to the frame like the rest of the furniture. Bulkheads weretabbed to the frame and the hull. Overhead was a liner that was more cosmetic than anything else. the ceiling (that's the walls on a boat) was 1-1/2 strips of teak screwed to fiberglass furing strips the ran vertically up the sides. I think every builder has there own combination of methods that they believe gets them a competatively priced boat to the market. In your search for the right boat, use the previous posts to evaluate each element and what it contributes to the structural compromise known as a boat.
pigslo