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post #31 of 41 Old 2 Days Ago
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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

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If the job description is 'upwind and up current' most of the time, not sure this is the boat for you unless you're in serious 'cruise' mode. Of course, if the currents are tidal (ie reversing during the day) your timing can make a world of difference. However I don't know the tidal influence on the St Lawrence. Certainly the state of the tide affects BC's Fraser river, but it truly only reverses in light runoff conditions.. during spring melts and heavy rains it simply slows down some.
Well, its not as dramatic as all upwind all up current all the time, although that is a major component. Basically day sailing or evening I sail back and forth across the river, upwind performance is a non issue. There is no racing on my part of the river, at least no sailboat racing, there is however, some very exciting, very fast power boat racing- but I/m just a spectator for that.

Current I'm afraid is one way in my neighbourhood. The tidal influence ends at Trois Riviere which is about 200 miles down river from me, so not much help.

My greatest area of concern is my week ending, we like to sail up to a series of anchorages upriver of me in the islands. It's a distance of about 12 miles, current is only about a knot in this zone. On each leg I can get about 1/2-1 mile of sea room before tacking. I'm not new to full keel boats, I do this trip under sail in my Fantasia 35, which doesn't exactly have a reputation for being an upwind power house in 3-4 hours, usually closer to 3, however, I definitely work up a sweat doing so. I guess if I could make 3 knots to windward, that would allow me to do the trip in a cool 6 hours, I have no issues with 6 hours.

Things change once in the islands if I'm cruising. The current picks up to 2-3 knots in places, however, there are lots of eddies behind the islands, both wind and water that are easy to ride up river if you know where to look. In this case the very shallow keel on the Bayfield would give me an edge, because I could take advantage of the shallow bits on the downstream portions of the islands and grab a lift with the current. There are short sections where the current is so strong I have never seen a boat sailing upriver against, that's okay, I'll use my motor for those sections. Any way, I'm, not too concerned about the next 78 miles or so to Lake Ontario, here shallow draft is king because it turns 600 foot tacking legs into 3000 foot tacking legs. Again, full keel is nice here, in case you smoke one of the submerged granite mountain tops at 5 knots.

If my vacation is long enough to make it to Eastern Lake Ontario, current and prevailing wind stops being an issue. It is rough in that section of lake though.

So I guess that's my question, can I make 3 knots up wind (no current) with a Bayfield 25 in 10-15 knots of wind, assuming I'm a reasonably competent sailor with decent sails?

Fantasia 35, Prindle 16, Walker Bay 8

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post #32 of 41 Old 2 Days Ago
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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

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Well, its not as dramatic as all upwind all up current all the time, although that is a major component. Basically day sailing or evening I sail back and forth across the river, upwind performance is a non issue. There is no racing on my part of the river, at least no sailboat racing, there is however, some very exciting, very fast power boat racing- but I/m just a spectator for that.

Current I'm afraid is one way in my neighbourhood. The tidal influence ends at Trois Riviere which is about 200 miles down river from me, so not much help.

My greatest area of concern is my week ending, we like to sail up to a series of anchorages upriver of me in the islands. It's a distance of about 12 miles, current is only about a knot in this zone. On each leg I can get about 1/2-1 mile of sea room before tacking. I'm not new to full keel boats, I do this trip under sail in my Fantasia 35, which doesn't exactly have a reputation for being an upwind power house in 3-4 hours, usually closer to 3, however, I definitely work up a sweat doing so. I guess if I could make 3 knots to windward, that would allow me to do the trip in a cool 6 hours, I have no issues with 6 hours.

Things change once in the islands if I'm cruising. The current picks up to 2-3 knots in places, however, there are lots of eddies behind the islands, both wind and water that are easy to ride up river if you know where to look. In this case the very shallow keel on the Bayfield would give me an edge, because I could take advantage of the shallow bits on the downstream portions of the islands and grab a lift with the current. There are short sections where the current is so strong I have never seen a boat sailing upriver against, that's okay, I'll use my motor for those sections. Any way, I'm, not too concerned about the next 68 miles or so to Lake Ontario, here shallow draft is king because it turns 600 foot tacking legs into 3000 foot tacking legs. Again, full keel is nice here, in case you smoke one of the submerged granite mountain tops at 5 knots.

If my vacation is long enough to make it to Eastern Lake Ontario, current and prevailing wind stops being an issue. It is rough in that section of lake though.

So I guess that's my question, can I make 3 knots up wind (no current) with a Bayfield 25 in 10-15 knots of wind, assuming I'm a reasonably competent sailor with decent sails.
I think you would be doing well to make that speed (VMG) reliably. My sense is that the bigger Bayfields are much better than the smaller ones. I think if I was on the river I would want a boat that went to windward really well, not just OK.
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After the refit we have decided to sell Ainia. We want something smaller that would be could for the light summer winds of Lake Ontario, although we plan to spend at least a couple of winters in the Caribbean before heading north.
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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

So are these boats good performers down wind?

I'm not a keel boat racer, so I'm kind of bad at interpreting PHRF numbers.

When I compare a Bayfield 25, to the other boats on my short list, all within 2' of waterline length, the Bayfield is the second fastest boat.

The boats I'm comparing it to are a Tanzer 22, a Catalina 22, a CS22 and a Sirius 21. These boats can all be trailered behind a Santa Fe and can all be purchased in good shape for less than $10k cdn.

The Tanzer 22 is by far the fastest, no doubt at least partially due to the fixed fin keel and low profile cabin top. It was showing about 15 seconds faster than the Bayfield.

The Sirius 21 and CS 22 were both showing about 6 seconds slower than the Bayfield. The CS 22 had the shortest waterline length of the bunch at 18' but also the highest ballast/displacement ratio at 50%. The Sirius 21 had the highest SA/D at 20.75 and the lowest ballast displacement at only 26%.

By far the slowest of the bunch was the Catalina 22 at around 24 seconds slower than the Bayfield with only 12" less waterline length.

So is the Bayfield making up the time against these other boats at 90-180 degrees off the wind? Am I using a flawed Handicap numbers?

I definitely understand the hydrodynamics behind the low aspect keel and why it shouldn't theoretically provide as much lift, but...?

A couple of observations is the Bayfield has a fairly high SA/D for this type of boat at over 20 and is the only one of the bunch with a lead ballast.

Fantasia 35, Prindle 16, Walker Bay 8

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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

PHRF numbers aside, I have a hard time picturing a B25 sailing faster than a C22, assuming both well-sailed, and esp upwind.

But they are 'cute' in their own way and certainly have more headroom than the others, so once again it's down to the compromises you're willing to make vs your priorities..
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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

The boat is underpowered for the Bahamas. Add an outboard on the stern for extra power.
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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

I was thinking more of something like a C&C 24 which is faster than a Bayfield 29 and better to windward. Not sure if it meets your trailering criteria.
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After the refit we have decided to sell Ainia. We want something smaller that would be could for the light summer winds of Lake Ontario, although we plan to spend at least a couple of winters in the Caribbean before heading north.
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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

btw, Arc, you really do need to start to narrow down your focus soon... discussing a Bayfield 25 and a Martin 244 in the same week is, well, kinda confusing... just sayin'
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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

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I was thinking more of something like a C&C 24 which is faster than a Bayfield 29 and better to windward. Not sure if it meets your trailering criteria.
It does, I'd have to rent a truck, which is no big deal really.. I've got a C&C25 I'm checking out as well as a Niagara 26.

I'm just trying to understand each boat based on its own Merritt's. I chose the boats I did for comparison because of the similarity in water line length.

I'm not a sucker for cute character boats, but when I look closely at the details, I see much more than a cute character boat, I see a boat that was very carefully designed to a certain spec, obviously that spec wasn't racing, it looks like Gozzard very intentionally designed a sturdy fixed keel family cruiser that could be towed behind a typical family car of the day.

I am definitely with you and Faster on the performance issues, especially given my location, I am just trying to determine how slow (upwind) these boats really are vs how slow they are perceived to be.

Fantasia 35, Prindle 16, Walker Bay 8

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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

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I.....
I am definitely with you and Faster on the performance issues, especially given my location, I am just trying to determine how slow (upwind) these boats really are vs how slow they are perceived to be.
I think a problem here is that most anyone who sails a B25 does not have boatspeed on their radar, so it will be difficult to get experienced feedback - have you looked for an owner's site? - just did and there doesn't seem to be an active one.

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Re: Bayfield 25, how seaworthy?

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btw, Arc, you really do need to start to narrow down your focus soon... discussing a Bayfield 25 and a Martin 244 in the same week is, well, kinda confusing... just sayin'
Imagine what my wife thinks

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I think a problem here is that most anyone who sails a B25 does not have boatspeed on their radar, so it will be difficult to get experienced feedback.
This is exactly what I'm thinking. I have seen lots of beginner sailors on these boats who maybe bought them for all the wrong reasons. I think some people buy them because they believe them to be a real cruising yacht, but small and affordable. My perception is more that of a big trailer sailer than a small cruising yacht.

When compared to other trailer sailors, they seem like reasonably capable boats to me. When compared to cruising yachts, they don't seem very good at all.

I honestly don't know how anybody could buy a boat without analyzing boat speed, sailing performance and seaworthiness. Before you can buy a boat you need to identify a usage. When buying the boat you have to be able to identify if the boat is compatible with that usage.

Fantasia 35, Prindle 16, Walker Bay 8

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