Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Blogs               
Boat Search (new)




Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Sailboat Design and Construction
User Name
Password
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 Like this article?  Digg It!  or   Bookmark it!
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
sailingdog sailingdog is offline
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 27,075
Rep Power: 5
sailingdog is a jewel in the roughsailingdog is a jewel in the roughsailingdog is a jewel in the rough
I've had a chance to see Steelboat's steel boat... and she is a beauty... currently a work in progress, but the work thus far is top notch from what I've seen. s/v Restless is a big beastie though. Her boom is a heavier extrusion than my mast, not too surprising though, considering the order of magnitude displacement difference.
__________________
Sailingdog

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this POST.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2008
steelboat steelboat is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: south of Boston
Posts: 29
Rep Power: 0
steelboat is on a distinguished road
Yeah SD, it was nice to see you, and thanks for the kind words. You could probably sail to P'town and back in the time it takes me to get across the bay, but if I ever finish the old girl, at least we'll be comfortable as we make our way over.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2008
billyruffn's Avatar
billyruffn billyruffn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 411
Rep Power: 5
billyruffn will become famous soon enough
When I bought Billy Ruff'n (Van de Stadt Samoa 47 built professionally in steel) the first owner said the secret to keeping a steel boat Bristol is to "make her think she's not in the water". To do that you must start with a great paint system and then the owner has to love maintenance, keep a large inventory of Dremel tool bits handy, and maintain a well stocked paint locker. Repairs I made 4-5 years ago are still good, but it takes time and patience.

To give our prospective steel boat owner an idea of what's involved, lets repair a simple blister:

1/ grind it back to bright metal -- you have to find the edges of the rust spot and don't stop until you've found a clean line between well adhered paint and bright metal.

2/ Ospho it to 'convert' any rust that might remain in the tiny spots where the Dremel tool won't fit. (I never really understood what was going on with Oshpo, but I assume it strips off the O2 off the rust molecule and replaces it w/ something inert. Oxide becomes a phosphate?? Folks wiser than I might comment on this?)

3. Grind some more -- Dremel fine point diamond tools work well in the later stages of rust removal from tiny pits in the metal. When you've run out of patience you can stop.

(A note of caution when grinding rust spots -- have a shop vac handy to suck up the grinding residue. I didn't do this one day on a mooring and ended up with small rust stains down wind from the repair. The rust stains will come out with phosphoric acid.)

4. Apply a thin coat of etching primer (Interlux makes the one I use). Let it dry for at least an hour but not more than 24.

5. Apply one or two coats of epoxy primer (Interlux primer is a two part that is then thinned).

6. Fair the repair spot with a two part marine filler, sanding between applications of filler. Depending on the nature of the repair it may take two or three attempts with the filler and sand paper to get it right.

7. Apply another two coats of epoxy primer.

8. Apply two coats of finish paint. Wet sand the patch spot with progressively finer grits to blend the edges of the patch.

9. Apply what ever you use to protect the paint (polymer sealants or wax)

....et voila, a perfect patch. Note that it's only taken 5-6 days to get the various layers to dry. As I said, you have to love maintenance and a degree in chemistry wouldn't hurt.

The owner (or his boat yard, if the owner has big bucks) can deal easily with the exterior rust on hull and deck using something like the process outlined above. The interior is another matter. Here you really have to ensure that your boats designer and the builder knew what they are doing. It's said that most steel boats rust from the inside out, and I think it's probably true. Even in the best designed and constructed boat there are places inside the hull where the paint just doesn't want to go -- for example, try getting a paint spray gun pointed up at the underside of a limber hole deep in the hull. It's places like this that rust first. Welds are another potential trouble spot. Then there's the issue of how the hull is insulated and how the insulation gets in the way of water finding it's way to the bilge. There is little you can do to repair rust that may get going behind the permanently installed bulkheads (without ripping them out, that is). Doing a proper job of rust repair in places that are difficult to access is nearly impossible, so here is where you have to be confident that the builder and his paint crew did a first rate job -- and even if they did, eventually nature will take its course and the boat begins to bleed. (A point worth considering: interior of the hull should be white so you can see where it's beginning to rust). If you find a boat with dark paint in the bilges, you are probably looking at someone trying to hide something.)

I'll second everything said above about getting a surveyor who knows steel boats, but I'd also carefully check out the reputations of the designer and builder before buying a used steel boat. See if you can find other boats built in the same yard around the same time and talk with their owners. Make sure the surveyor gets out a bright light and small mirrors and really pokes around in the interior of the boat.

As for the strength of steel -- with a moment of inattention during the summer of 2006 Billy Ruff'n and I hit a rock at 6 knots. No leaks. We sailed it another 700 miles to a good yard where the boat was hauled. Damage to the hull was limited to loss of paint and fairing compound on the leading edge of the keel. It was easily repaired for about $2800. (We also put some hair line cracks on the leading edges of all the spreaders near where they join the mast). I am convinced that if we'd been in a lightly built fibreglass boat, our sailing season would have been over and the boat may have sunk.

Nothing stands up to rocks and careless owners like steel.

Last edited by billyruffn : 01-15-2008 at 10:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2008
mallo mallo is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 29
Rep Power: 0
mallo is on a distinguished road
Hi all
We sail a 48ft Steel Ketch and have done so for the last 30 Years! The boat was built in 1939, 70 years ago next year, and she is in “original condition” according to her last survey, and I can say that steel does stand up to groundings…. I have been there!!!!
We had an accident just outside our home port which will say in my mind forever.
We managed to put her up on an isolated head “20ft either way we would have missed it” unfortunately the first point of contact was the “plastic speed transducer” that smashed the flange off and then just “popped in” leaving a 2” hole in the bottom, she also split the frame down to the next frame, there wasn’t a “backing/compensating plate” this splitting wouldn’t have happened if a backing plate had been fitted.
As soon as it happened I realised we had a problem as the automatic bilge pumps cut in and we were taking on water.
I stuffed all I could get my hands on to slow the inflow of water that helped until the water was deeper than my arm length!!
We needed a “big” pump, which arrived half an hour after we had hit the rock, about the same time as my arms weren’t long enough.
During this time she was being picked up and dropped back on to the head ”she was stuck on the rock between the bottom and the bilge keels and it was quite frightening looking back on it” once we got the boat back it turned out the area that took the pounding was under the engine where the hull plate was pushed up about 3” even though it was “backed up” by the engine beds “10mm plate” it just folded this plate up and pushed in the hull plate but didn’t hole or crack.
I think the material that a boat it built out of is all a bit of a compromise, steel has its downside of if the coating gets damaged it rusts, and it is very correct when people say that steel hulls rot through from the inside out that was obvious when we originally purchased the boat 30 Years ago, however with the paints today they are very forgiving.
Fibre glass needs polishing etc once a year or more depending where you keep it this is quite a big job…
Wood looks good when the paint is just completed but as the material moves (shrinks and expands) as it dries out and then gets wet again the paint cracks and needs re-painting.
We have gone 5+ years without re-painting our steel hull, yes we have to touch up some rust spots but as has been explained it earlier posts a quick flick with a grinder and/or a wire brush and then just coating/filling as needed.
With regard to performance our boat weights about 20tonnes (probably a bit more than that) she performs fairly well with a modern hull, she doesn’t sail quite as fast as a modern boat or point as close to the wind, however when its rough she is very comfortable doesn’t bounce around and ploughs through the waves.
In my opinion steel makes quite a good cruising boat, as said before it needs to be over 40ft in size to get the benefits of steel, it might not be the fastest boat but given the conditions will perform well and if the weather turns bad, she will get you home.
If anyone is thinking of purchasing a steel boat get a surveyor who specializes in steel, look inside at all the bilge and anywhere where water can/could collect and check for corrosion/plate thickness. It could have a thin area that has been painted over. If you still want the boat contact the seller and haggle the price down, these “thin” areas can be replaced or repaired. I have been there, it depends what the boat means to you.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2008
Jeff_H's Avatar
Jeff_H Jeff_H is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 4,136
Rep Power: 9
Jeff_H will become famous soon enough
One quick point on Mallo's post. In the thirties the metal used was closer to iron than the high strength high carbon steel used today. That was actually good news as these low carbon irons were less rust prone and more malliable allowing them to survive much longer than the steels used after the WWII. That said, iron or mild steel will work harden making it more brittle than it started out.

I am glad to hear that the ole girl survived. May of these pre-war iron boats were truely works of art.

Respectfully,
Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2008
billyruffn's Avatar
billyruffn billyruffn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 411
Rep Power: 5
billyruffn will become famous soon enough
Re. Jeff H's last post on iron as a building material

I've told myself that I'd quit sailing when I can't get it up any more (the mainsail, that is). One day I found myself researching alternatives to cruising sailboats and discovered you can buy canal barges in Europe that are over 100 years old -- all with hulls made of iron plates. Of course, they're used in fresh water and that must help -- nonetheless, it makes the point that if you take care of a metal boat it will last much longer than you will.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008
Valiente Valiente is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,084
Rep Power: 4
Valiente will become famous soon enoughValiente will become famous soon enough
I recommend the writings of Bill and Laurel Cooper, who must both be past 80 now and own a large Dutch sailing barge with lee boards...very old school, but canal-capable. They did a nice if fairly opinionated book called "Sell Up and Sail" a few years back.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
gadfly
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 7,846
Rep Power: 6
sailaway21 is a jewel in the roughsailaway21 is a jewel in the roughsailaway21 is a jewel in the roughsailaway21 is a jewel in the rough
There is in fact a huge difference in longevity of steel hulls in fresh versus salt water. Many people wonder at how "old fashioned" some of the ore boats on the Great Lakes look. They look that way because they are old-fashioned with many of the hulls approaching 75-100 years old. (that's not a misprint) The only thing that has done many of them in is the trend towards larger ships.

Most ocean-going ships now utilize a system called cathodic protection. This electrical system sets up a milliamp current through the hull which causes it to resist galvanic corrosion. I've seen plates abraded to bare steel that did not rust with such a system. Bottom painting used to be an annual event for these ships and it now is only done every two years, and then only as necessary upon inspection. Normal red lead or other bottom paints do not work with such a system; a special paint is required.

A passing thought based on Jeff's remarks on topside weight in a steel boat. The SS United States, the "Big U", was constructed with an aluminum superstructure and was one of the first, if not the first, to be built this way. (she still resides in Norfolk) The cost is prohibitive for average merchant ship construction but the weight savings are undeniable. It may surprise some that most modern warship's houses are constructed of aluminum for the weight savings. (the modern warship is no longer designed to be able to resist gunfire or missile strikes, the enemy is not supposed to get close enough for guns and missiles are to be shot down. the weakness of this theory in extremis was discovered by the British in the Falklands War when one of their frigates was struck by an Exocet missile. Aluminum burns extremely hot, especially when an aluminum-magnesium alloy is used.) While expensive due to the construction techniques required, an aluminum topsides could be entirely feasible. (i probably should have said, prohibitively expensive!)
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008
artbyjody's Avatar
artbyjody artbyjody is online now
One word: Jiblet
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Elliott Bay Marina, N-106 Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,547
Rep Power: 4
artbyjody is a jewel in the roughartbyjody is a jewel in the roughartbyjody is a jewel in the roughartbyjody is a jewel in the rough
Send a message via AIM to artbyjody Send a message via Yahoo to artbyjody
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
There is in fact a huge difference in longevity of steel hulls in fresh versus salt water. Many people wonder at how "old fashioned" some of the ore boats on the Great Lakes look. They look that way because they are old-fashioned with many of the hulls approaching 75-100 years old. (that's not a misprint) The only thing that has done many of them in is the trend towards larger ships.
I would beg to differ... The great lakes is not exactly 'fresh water' it is brackish... The difference between old steel and new steel - is that todays engineers desire the smallest weight to have more buoyancy in their 'scientific' designs which comes at a cost in terms of selecting whatever grade of steel - 100 years ago - big and heavy was beautiful (and according to the personals on Craigslist - its making a comeback)...as it was equated to 'indestructible' (ie titanic) and metallurgy was something of new era... Imagine if modern epoxy was invented 150 or 300 years ago - huge wooden ships - not steel would of become the norm for commercial vessels...

One also has to consider the upkeep of vessels in pre-today eras. Now the goal is to minimize the amount of upkeep. In the earlier days - a Captains pride was the vessel. So upkeep in terms of painting, and the likes was carried out more fastidiously resulting in a greater lifespan of the vessel.

The are lots of factors that end up being considered but 1900 era vessels were up kept to a more stringent maritime tradition and had thicker steel... Today light and minimum upkeep when even it is admitted in scientific circles - metallurgy is not a exact science and maritime standards have actually been reduced to expected lifespans and the cost of mininal labor upkeep and etc....
__________________
-- Jody



S/V "Hello Gorgeous" - 1983, Barberis Show 38!

Sailing is realizing you are the master of your domain, while recognizing that said domain is actually only on lease - with ever changing conditions of terms. - (me)




Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2008
Valiente Valiente is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,084
Rep Power: 4
Valiente will become famous soon enoughValiente will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
While expensive due to the construction techniques required, an aluminum topsides could be entirely feasible. (i probably should have said, prohibitively expensive!)
My pilothouse has an aluminum "lid" or roof for this reason, but the sides are steel. The key (particularly as wiring is run through said roof) is to isolate the metals from one another as much as possible, just as one would using steel bolts on an aluminum mast.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Prospective New/Recent Tartan Buyers Note camaraderie Buying a Boat 375 1 Day Ago 04:47 PM
C & C 121 Customer Response to Manufacturers Post camaraderie Tartan 0 09-10-2007 06:43 PM
High Tech vs traditional-Comments? Pangaea General Discussion (sailing related) 38 08-07-2007 01:07 AM
Rust Never Sleeps John Kretschmer Buying a Boat Articles 0 02-27-2003 07:00 PM
Rust Never Sleeps John Kretschmer Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 02-27-2003 07:00 PM

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC8
(c) Sailnet 2000-2006