Steel Hull Construction

[sailingdog]

Rust never sleeps. You really need a good surveyor, who specializes in steel boats, to tell you if the boat has been well maintained or not. A lot of times, the boat may look fine visually, but may have had an galvanic corrosion issue which has thinned the hull material unacceptably. Galvanic corrosion is a huge issue on metal boats, more so on aluminum than steel, but a problem on all metal boats, and one that can be easily overlooked.

Maintenance and keeping the paint in proper repair is also very important on a steel boat. If the boat was really zinc treated, it will have an edge over one that wasn't, provided the zinc treatment was done properly.

Van de Stadt seems to understand metal boats and designs a pretty good one from what I've seen. The Europeans build more small metal boats than does the US IIRC, and probably have more experience in the proper fabrication and how to avoid problems because of that, provided the boat was built in a yard with steel boat experience. The nicest steel boats I've seen in the US are all homebuilts. Two of them were built here in Massachusetts, and one of them is built/owned by a sailnet member, steelboat. His website is located here. If you want to see a work of love, I'd recommend looking at that site.

Originally Posted by popeyewanab

Hi all,

I am considering buying a 40' cutter steel boat and I'm looking for input on the builder and the original specs that follow. I have yet to get a survey and that will be critical. I plan on sailing the boat around the world as I liveaboard over the next 5-10 years. Details;

"Orca" Van der Stadt design. Built by Forges de Paimpon in France (Britany) and launched in 1987. The original thickness of the keel was 10mm, hull below the waterline 5mm, above waterline to the deck 4mm, and 3mm roof. The finished boat given zinc bath inside and out and then a coating of epoxy tar primer, 2 marin epoxy coats and 2 antifouling coats under the water line. I am told by the seller that the hull is in excellent condition, but after reading about steel corrosion I am very apprehensive about buying one that is now 20years old. Was this the best protection offered back in 1987, and what type of maintenance shouldhave been performed to maintain the integrity of the original protective coatings? Any input is appreciated.

[Valiente]

Van de Stadt is a reputable designer, but with steel it is all about the prep and the care since the build. Quoting metal thicknesses is essentially as irrelevant as pulling out a picture of your grandmother as a teenager to prove how "hot" she is.

Get a metal boat and/or commercial surveyor, NOT a plastic boat surveyor. For a 40 footer, expect a bill of $700 or so. Best money you will ever spend.

As a preliminary, get a digital camera with a tiltable swing-out viewscreen and get lifting the floor boards. Take pictures of all the frames. Rust can be dealt with, but deep flaking can't without a lot of expense. On the other hand, it is possible to find an otherwise pristine boat with a localized coating failure that has compromised a single plate or a confined area, like an anchor locker. If you can get over the imagery of having the bow cut out and rewelded, you could knock tens of thousands off the price assuming you know a decent welder.

Do your homework and you'll be fine. There are rarely "borderline" small steel yachts. They either need a little work and "spot" attention, or they are ready to scrap.

And for the guy who likes the Waterlines: good taste, there, buddy! You have to get within five feet to realize they are steel boats, which is probably why they start at a half-million bucks. There's a Waterline 47 called "Cambriol" near me that is absolutely gorgeous and is kept in ready to leave condition.



And she's for sale:
1998 Waterline Yachts Steel Sloop Boat For Sale

[sailingdog]

You're just looking for someone else to join the corrosion watch brigade... I bet you sleep with a wire brush in hand.

[Valiente]

No, but my son's middle name is "Ospho".

A yachtie acquaintance sent me this today. You can't argue with the fact that it's possible to make steel both beautiful and enduring...you just have to do the work. This is a 44-year-old Dutch-designed, French-built cruiser-racer (yes, it won races in its day) for sale. Beautiful!

SANDETTIE

[billyruffn]

Popeyewanab,

Lots of good advice above. I have a Van de Stadt Samoa 47 professionally built in steel in Australia in 1994. Her first owner sailed her around the Pacific and to the Med. He was an experienced steel boat owner and kept her up. I've owned her since '99 and followed the advice of my first surveyor (a "steel boat" surveyor who told me -- "keep up the maintenance and you'll get your money out of her"). I've followed his advice and it's a labor of love. You look for rust all the time inside and out. When you find it you treat it. You don't cut corners by slapping on some paint and getting on with the season's cruise. You grind it back to shiny metal and then go through a long detailed coatings routine that may take you five days or more to finsih. In most instances you can build a small inventory of rusty spots before digging in, but you must dig in each year and 'get the rust out'. It's particularily hard inside -- here's where the builder's art comes into play. If she's well built with lots of limber holes in the right places and if the original coatings regime was done well you won't have many big problems -- just lots of smaller ones that need attention.

The advice re getting a really good metal boat surveyor is right on. I paid about $800 (47 ft) about 5 years ago. Watch your surveyor, crawl over the boat right behind him. He should come with a bright light and mirrors of various shapes and sizes he'll need to fit in the nooks and cranies of the hull's interior. Ask lots of questions. Have him detail all the problems he finds and then get a quote from a reputable yard on what it will cost to fix things the right way.

Exterior paintwork is reasonably easy to fix. It may not be cheap, but it is doable. Example: when the original owner found lots of blistering on BR's hull after only two years in the water, he had her sand blasted to bright metal below the waterline and all the coatings were redone. We've had no problems since. On the otherhand, fixing a serious interior rust problem probably involves ripping out interior fittings / joinery work, insualtion, wiring, etc. That gets really expensive very fast.

Bottom line #1 -- if the interior of the hull is in good condition, the rig is strong and the mechanicals are sound, the rest is mostly cosmetic.

Bottom line #2 -- owning steel boats is a labor of love. If you enjoy DIY type work and are willing to learn a few new technologies, you can probably handle most of the hull maintenance yourself. (For example: I normally do all the prep work on rust repairs and let the yard's paint guys shoot the final coats of Awlgrip on the patches).

You can't beat steel for strength (I hit a rock doing 6 knots and we kept on going -- fixing the paint at the end of the season), but you do need to keep up with the maintenance -- as someone said above (Dog?) -- "rust never sleeps".

[tdw]

Val - Very nice indeed. You have a copy of the Proper Yacht by Arthur Beisser ? I'm not looking at it so could be wrong on the detail but his own boat was an Alden (??) ketch (big, 60 - 70 feet I think) called Minots Light. Effing gorgeous.
He eventually sold it and went for a smaller Swan but that was largely due to kids not sailing with them anymore and advancing years.
As you know the Womboat is steel and Van de Stadt.

ref - Popeye's post , the Womboat is going on 20 years old (launched in 1991) and provided the boat you are looking at has been well cared for that is no big deal. There is no model called Orca currently listed on the VDS website (www.stadtdesigns.com) so I can't comment on the particular model but VDS are well regarded and pioneered various modern techniques in steel boat building over the years.
Our model (VDS 34) was apparently one of if not the first steel boat to be designed on computer using auto cad or similar program. Some of the VDSs are a bit slab sided for my liking but thats personal opinion and the look of too much topside can be reduced with the odd stripe. Round bilge is always going to be visually more attractive than hard or multi chine but most steel boats tend to be chined not round bilge.
As to sailing ability I can only comment on the 34 but she is a good boat to sail, not much good in very light airs compared to say GRP , but kicks up her heals in anything over 10 knots.
Maintenance wise Valiente is right on the money. Keep a steel boat maintained, get rid of any rust as soon as it appears and make sure you prime correctly. Then the only ongoing problems will be caused by knocks and scratches but can be easily repaired. Dry bilge is also damned important so a dripless stern gland is a good idea.
No doubt about, steel is good but the next Womboat is almost certainly going to be plastic.
Sailing320 - Have you been on board yet ? Looking at the pics, one design feature jumped out at me and that is the cockpit. Very very high and quite low back supports for the seats. I have to say that turns me off. From the pics it just looks somewhat exposed. Me, I prefer to be down a bit lower. I don't know how much sailing you have done but feeling safe and secure in the cockpit is a big plus for me. Big high cockpit is nice for cocktails and drifting around the Med but maybe not so great for offshorework or for cooler climates. Once you add dodger you are also generating an awful lot of windage so she might dance around her anchor a fair bit. Have to say it's a lovely fitout but for eu300,000 it would want to be. That high cockpit allows for an enormous amount of room below decks of course.

[Valiente]

No Arthur B. in the house, but I'll look it up. Big sale tomorrow at the used book shop.

[Kater]

For what it's worth, here is my experience with steel boats:

My father build a Van de Stadt Carribean 40' in steel, launched in 1993. He is handy but not professional and he certainly isn't very precise, carefull or picky about details. Since '97 no - absolutely NO - maintainance has been done since he didn't use it anymore and it just lay rotting away. Three years ago I started working on it and putting it back to shape.

I started on the outside of the hull. The single layer of two-component paint was almost everywhere still intact and I kept that and set up new layers on from there. The steel was very much intact, only some little rusty areas at the waterline.
The deck was worse, lots of rust everywhere, but no deep spots. We just sanded it down and repainted it. Lot of work since there are all these corners, hatches, etc. Looks great when done though!

That was last spring, this spring (a month ago) we started on the inside. All looked fine; original two-component layer still intact, accept one area, all the way in the back, just before the rudder. There was lots of rust and when removing it my girlfriend went straight through the hull. Small leak, couple centimeters below the waterline. Pretty scary at first (first time!) but it really was very small, and we fixed it temporarily three weeks ago and it's still watertight.

We have to fix it though, and we are now doing some research how and where. We have to take a piece of steel out (about 2 x 1 foot) and weld in a new piece. This is a fairly easy job for an experienced welder. We just have to take out some of the woodwork of the interior and paint everything again in the end.

So, although it frightened me at first, it really isn't that bad. And this is a ship not build by a professional, not maintained for about 10 years, in brakish water.

Conclusion: rust never sleeps, but it goes very slowly and is relatively easy to repair, as has been stated by others as well. Just a couple more weekends on the boat!

[Valiente]

Good for you. The ability to repair almost any damage on a steel boat (assuming it isn't systemic failure of welds or rooted in negligent preparation) is one of the pluses of the material.

Cutting out and replacing a plate on a steel hull only seems like a major job to those imagining the same task on a fibreglass hull. Now, making it imperceptible is a different job, of course, but making it sound is not.

[Kater]

Too true Valiente,

imperceptable is something else, but that's not the goal on this boat.
In fact we are still seriously thinking about just doubling the area: welding a plate on the outside. Even easier to do but i'm not a big fan of this method. For one it's a bump in the hull, and I also think the part we cover up keeps rusting...