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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
Valiente Valiente is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumper View Post
Perhaps a partial skeg with the screw in an aperture is the best compromise. The rudder would be supported much lower and consequently stronger than a spade rudder. It is less wetted area than a full skeg giving performance and the rudder couldo be shaped so that some of it extends forward of the hinge allowing it to be more balanced. I would be particularly good if the portion extending below the skeg was designed to be sacrificial so that, in the event of a major blow, it would just break off leaving the portion above the skeg to steer with. The screw in the aperture would be well protected.

Gaz
Some boats have this and others, like the French aluminum OVNI line and the ultra-shallow draft Southerly 33s have kick-up rudders similar to dinghies so you can drive the boat onto the beach at low tide, scrap off the goo, and then pour yourself a drink.

Very civilized.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
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Part of the problem with spade rudder is some floating or almost neutrally buoyant debris may well hit the keel and then come up to hit the spade rudder. I saw a section of telephone pole last year that would have qualified as such. A skeg-mounted rudder is probably going to survive such an impact far better than a straight spade.

However, a spade rudder does have some serious advantages over a skeg mounted rudder, most of which are unbalanced designs. The spade rudder, usually a semi-balanced design, will often be far easier to turn and more effective at turning the boat. This means you can have less leverage built into the steering system and makes the boat easier to steer.

Also, an unbalanced rudder design is far more sensitive in reverse, since the unbalanced design will tend to try and kick the helm over hard if you've got any speed.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
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Guys....its not the floating stuff that hits the keel and rudder..nothing that floats will hit the keel and rudder, unless its a whale or a container...because it needs to get under the hull to hit the keel....

I am not affraid of hiting telephone posts at all...they bounce off the bow and don't dive...its ropes and buoyes and whales that are the problem....not floating debris...
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
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Pop up rudders and centerboards make lobster/crab pots a no-worries for me.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
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The answer on this kind of question simply comes down to the engineering employed on the specific boat in question. While it is possible to engineer a skeg hung rudder so that the skeg is completely structurfal and capable of supporting the rudder, the typical skeg that is found on older designs rarely was engineered to be any stronger than a properly designed post hung rudder and in many cases the any structural gain that results from the skeg, is offset by the smaller rudder posts often employed with a skeg hung rudder.

Similarly a skeg hung rudder should in theory track better than a post hung rudder, but again, it comes down to execution of the specific design. At least under sail, tracking is primarily dynamic, the balance between sails and underwater foils. A boat that is designed to be properly balanced and with it sails properly trimmed, will track forever regardless of its keel or rudder type.

As you increase the rotational polar moment of by adding a skeg, the boat typically will wander through smaller course changes in relatively flat water. In a seaway, any given hull form will cause trim steering, meaning that assymetry in the shape of the hull that is in the wave will cause the boat to veer off course, and a boat with a higher rotational moment of inertia boat will tend to lock in on the altered course and take longer to return to balance. Again this is a design specific issue but this can cause increasingly large swings as the boat stores energy on each swing, in other words meaning that a skeg hung rudder will not necessarily inherently track better in all conditions.

In terms of ease of steering, and wearing out crew or grinding down batteries, it is not obvious to me that there is a clear advantage to a skeg vs post hung rudder. While it may be argued that post-hung rudders need more frequent adjustments, because a post hung rudder is more efficient and counterbalanced, these adjustments are smaller and require much less force. In my own experience skeg hung rudders are generally more tiring than a well designed counter-balanced post hung.

Then there is the warp getting caught in the rudder argument. In my life the only boats that I have ever done that on were full-keeled with attached rudder where the warp slid up the keel and into the gap. That said, getting a warp caught in a post hung rudder seems like a real possibility. One way around that is a small skeg with closer flaps. You can see and example of a shallow skeg with protective flaps on my boat in this picture taken from astern. (Sorry, I wish I knew how to insert pictures successfully)
http://www.sailnet.com/photogallery/...php?photo=1394


More and more, post hung rudders do seem to be accepted within the blue water community. Probably one of the most prolific purveyors of blue water cruisers, Island Packet, (assuming that you agree that Island Packets are offshore cruisers) typically employs post hung rudders rather than a skeg hung rudder and in their case thier post hung rudder is typically very close in depth to the depth of the keel.

To me, like so many things in yacht design, this is just another case where the right answer comes down to the specifics of the boat in question.

Jeff
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Old 02-01-2008
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Quote:
Guys....its not the floating stuff that hits the keel and rudder..nothing that floats will hit the keel and rudder, unless its a whale or a container...because it needs to get under the hull to hit the keel....
Some of the floating logs up here in the PNW get so water logged that they don't float so well and are nearly neutrally buoyant. Also, while one end of the log my be sticking up out of the water, the other end may be several feet under water. So in some circumstances I think they can strike keels and rudders.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
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My rudder is a

compromise between a full skeg and what was just posted. I feel safer then a full spade, but not as safe as a full Skeg mounted. As far as performance it seems to be a good compromise.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
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Just a small request..what is a skeg and a post rudder and a protective flap??

Someone show me the different things and the names,,,very confused now.
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Old 02-01-2008
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The skeg is a small fin in front of the rudder. It can be a shallow fin as seen on my boat or a fin that is deep as the rudder itself as seen on the photo of the Pacific Seacraft. The protective flaps are small pieces of stiff rubber that bridge the gap between the rudder and the trailing edge of the skeg. A post hung rudder is a rudder like you and I have where the full loading of the rudder is supported on the rudder post. That is in contrast to a keel hung rudder or skeg hung rudder where the keel or rudder supports the leading edge of the rudder.

Jeff
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Old 02-01-2008
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thanks Jeff...I obviously knew what they are just don't know the names you give them.

Thanks..

By the way...ours are the best !eheheheehe
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