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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2008
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Sailaway...go back to sleep...that was in 1856...not now....
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2008
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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Giu,
Would you care for some references on the matter or is this just another one of those cases where an engineer of lesser calling aspires to be a marine engineer?
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2008
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Actually I am an aeronautical engineer, not an engineer of lesser....and never called myself marine engineer.....go back to bed....

And I could explain why in modern designs it is almost irrelevant...but you wouldn't understand...its not politics....
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2008
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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Feel free to be, well, expansive. The election is a long way off.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2008
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Sailaway,

First of all, both a skeg hung and a post hung spade rudder operate in the same amount of turbulance off of the keel, but in most modern designs, because of leeway, neither form of rudder experiences much of the keels turbulance at least as compared to a keel hung rudder.

But if you go back near the beginning of this thread there is an explanation why because of leeway a spade hung rudder actually has a better angle of attach and experiences less turbulance than a skeg hung rudder.

Jeff
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2008
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SA, since this is not available in biased web pages that discuss politics from one point of view only, I will try to make it as simple as possible, and have, in the mean time produced 2 drawings that will help you uinderstand what I mean, since words is not my forte. So to be concise and explicit, something you know not how to do, here I go:

Basically after the 80's and with the abandoning of the IOR design tendencies, the trend in the design of modern boats, called for keels that became more and more thiner, and and also narrower in their aspect ratios but also further forward than they used to be.

Add to that the fact that boats designed now are normlly faster that what they used to be (when the books you read were written), due to larger sailplans and more efficient rigging, the design of the keels had to change to a point where they are now also deeper than they were before. By doing all this, the general trend in modern boats is to have the keel further away from the rudder.

Therefore, the turbulence caused by the trailing edge disrupted flow vortexes, became less effective in causing flow disruptances on the rudder. A fact I tried to joke with you by mentioning 1800's designs.

These vortex induced turbulences and disrutions do cause vibration and can cause flutter at or above ceratin speeds, but does not reduce the effectivness of the rudder by values that cause concern. Not in modern design.





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Last edited by Giulietta : 03-09-2008 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 03-09-2008
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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alex,
While on longer boats a greater degree of keel rudder seperation may minimize the effects of tip vortex turbulence you so ably illustrated it does not allow for the fact that your illustration refers to steady state flow conditions.

Once the boat is heeled, particularly in heavy weather conditions, the availability of clean water at the leading edge of the keel is compromised. The keel hung or skeg hung rudder seperated from the keel, benefit from the clean water flow provided by keel or skeg. The dynamic instability that makes the boat with the spade rudder so manoeuverable in steady state conditions can also make it uncontrollable in unsteady conditions.

Your diagram makes no allowance for heel or leeway and the resultant uneven, and varying, turbulence at the tip.

Thanks for the excellent artwork.
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Old 03-09-2008
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This discussion is similar to the stabilizer/elevator vs stabilator rants seen on just about every airplane board.

Designed correctly, THEY BOTH WORK just fine.
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Old 03-09-2008
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SA..no it does not make the boat uncontrolable..how do you explain I can sail in those conditions?

I don't lose control of my boat and have done pretty rough water sailing. For real as you know, not in bla bla bla...
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Old 03-09-2008
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GUI-

Your keel is substantially higher profile than that of Sway's boat, so will have less turbulence generated and greater separation between the keel and rudder.
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