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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
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  #21  
Old 03-14-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I think that this has turned into a good discussion of this complex issue. I did want to touch on a couple of Keelhaulin's discussion points. The point that I was bringing up was that there is a perception based on L/D numbers that modern performance cruisers are substantially lighter than the boats that preceded them.

As I was trying to point out a modern 35 footer is not all that much lighter than a CCA era 35 footer (perhaps 5%-10% at the most, and often the newer design is actually heavier) but they tend to have substantially longer waterline lengths and substantially lower VCG's, both of which would tend to make the boat more seaworthy, have motions that are easier on crews and increase carrying capacity as compared to an earlier era equal displacement/shorter waterline boat.

The point that I was making is that there is a problem that arises in comparing equal weight boats modern boats to older designs using these older formulas. The problem is with the expected values which were based on older style short waterline boats. When you apply these standard range of values to modern designs with their long waterlines, modern boats appear to be much lighter than they are and so also appear to be less seaworthy.

I gave a similar example above, but just for the sake of clarity if we compare say a modern 35 footer to a CCA era 35 footer, both would weight roughly 12,000 to 13,000 lbs empty and would have similar weights fully loaded, but the modern boat could easily have 5 or more feet of waterline, both static and heeled. But since the LD, CSF, and MCI use waterline length, the equal weight modern boat would appear to be extremely lighter and less seaworthy, when in fact it is the same weight, and if properly designed, more seaworthy.

Respectfully,
Jeff

.
Perhaps some of those formulas should be adjusted to use length on deck instead of WL length. Maybe when comparing numbers both calculations should be used.
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  #22  
Old 03-14-2008
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Yeah; I have a feeling that the "numbers" would tend to improve for the CCA boats since their static LWL is what is used in the calc's. Remember, the LWL is non-static on those boats; so you can't really measure performance based on the dockside LWL.

In terms of seaworthyness; I still think it depends on the boat (new-era or old). In raw numbers comparisons the older boats tend to have better capsize ratio numbers and better motion comfort numbers. But again I still think it depends on the particular boat and how it sails. Sailboat calculators are only estimates of what the actual performance will be, they don't take into account hull and keel design.
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  #23  
Old 03-14-2008
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All these theories are cool but all I really know is what I see and feel on the water. I mean, that's what it all boils down to. Where's the old girl's groove? Why do I consistently run off from newer boats with longer waterlines in 15 knots and above? Why do I still sail away from these newer boats in light air? Why is the motion of my old boat slower and more comfortable than the newer boats I've sailed in the same conditions? Granted, the newer boats are a helluva lot more comfy in port but I really like the fact that if/when I lose my balance, I ain't got far to go before I can grab or lean on something.

Before I got this old boat, I'd have said, Why would anybody want one? My wife would've turned her nose up at it. Now that we have it and have sailed it in all kinds of conditions, neither of us would trade her for a newer boat.

I do know this. I'll be out there hard on the wind Saturday in the showers and back out there just cruising in the sunshine on Sunday. I got most of my boat work done last weekend, it's time to go sailing.

Last edited by CharlieCobra; 03-14-2008 at 01:12 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-14-2008
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Be sure to post some photos CC, she's still a pretty old girl.
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Old 03-14-2008
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Got my response from Ted Brewer:

Tim

Sorry if there is any misunderstanding. There is certainly nothing wrong
with long overhangs for blue water voyaging. Indeed they provide reserve
buoyancy and, in a seaway, make for a dryer boat on deck..

However the article was aimed at a boat that was specifically designed for
offshore work and I tried to make the comparisons along that line.

Fair Winds
Ted Brewer

There you have it. This from a fellow who has been in it forever, rubbing shoulders with many of the greats who have since moved on to the next reality, working on everything from little boats for the lake to America's Cup, and has many designs out there now.
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Old 03-14-2008
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So far the worse I've been in are square little eight footers close-hauled. While the boat pitched (slowly), it was wetter on the sailing deck (high and aft of the pilothouse) than it was on the foredeck or indeed on the pilothouse windows.

LOD=40.0. LOA 41.9 ft., LWL=31.2 ft., beam=12.5 ft. Bluff bows and a big arse on her (about six-six wide at the stern). Very different from the plastic boat's ride.



I believe it's called a "bluff" bow:

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  #27  
Old 03-14-2008
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Val, Aren't you at all concerned about your boat toppling off her stands, storing it on a steeply sloped hillside like that? (g)
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  #28  
Old 03-14-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seabreeze_97 View Post
Got my response from Ted Brewer:

Tim

Sorry if there is any misunderstanding. There is certainly nothing wrong
with long overhangs for blue water voyaging. Indeed they provide reserve
buoyancy and, in a seaway, make for a dryer boat on deck..

However the article was aimed at a boat that was specifically designed for
offshore work and I tried to make the comparisons along that line.

Fair Winds
Ted Brewer

There you have it. This from a fellow who has been in it forever, rubbing shoulders with many of the greats who have since moved on to the next reality, working on everything from little boats for the lake to America's Cup, and has many designs out there now.
I love reading Ted's stuff -- clear and to the point. I use his website fairly often when doing research because of his plain English explanations of boat design elements.
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  #29  
Old 03-14-2008
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He's not worried, he stress tested that cradle last year by dumping it and the boat off the trailer on the way to the marina. He even had photos of it.
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  #30  
Old 03-14-2008
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Jeesh Val, that's gotta be like sailing a brick in following seas.
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