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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
Sailormann Sailormann is offline
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To say that something made primarily of "plastic" (the very definition of plastic is something that is not a permanently shaped solid);
it's not "plastic". It's polyester resin. Check out your chemistry. The colloquial concept of "plastic" as you are emplying it indicates a substance that is flexible. FWIW the usage of the term as a conversational adjective was subsequent to the introduction of the flexible chemical structures utilising crosslinked polymers and plasticisers to create a compound that is durable, elastic and economical. Plasticisers are organic liquids which dissolve in large qualities into solid polymers.

So while polyester resin which is formed from long chained monomers, may be included in the same chemical family as plastics based on its provenance, it is as fundamentally different from the flexible things we speak of as plastics as a frog is from a tree.

Quote:
Polystyrene (PS) is rigid and non-toxic, with excellent dimensional stability and good chemical resistance to aqueous solutions but limited resistance to solvents. ... Products made of polystyrene are brittle at ambient temperature and may crack or break if dropped from benchtop height.
- NUNC

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Glass fibres generally improve strength and modulus under tensile and flexural stress, lower the tendency to creep, improve heat resistance, and often also raise impact and notched impact resistance.

In practice, between 25-40% by weight of short glass fibre roughly doubles tensile strength but considerably lowers elongation. As the stress-strain diagram opposite shows, reinforced plastics have a brittle failure mode, without a pronounced strain limit.

For this reason, the tensile stress at yield of 60-90MPa of unreinforced engineering plastics may be compared with the tensile stress at break of 120-200MPa of reinforced plastics.

Addition of reinforcing materials, such as glass fibre, can raise stiffness to 20,000N/mm2. Amorphous polystyrene (PS) has an elongation at break of about 3%, whereas that of semi-crystalline polyethylene
(PE) can be as high as 1,000%. Typical values for impact resistance are in the 1–130 kJ/m2 range.
- Dupont

Quote:
and glass fiber (which does stretch/flex) should not flex or deform is simply incorrect. It depends on the type of deformation and overall stress applied to the FRP; as to whether it has seen a load stress that has caused failure of the fibers.
You can sit and postulate for a long time. The OP asked whether there was any cause for concern about a dent in the bottom of a fibreglass boat. Yes there is. The dent may go away. The hull may still be strong enough that it ill never affect the performance or safety of the craft.

Or it might not.

Fibreglass is not an elastic material.

Best err on the side of caution.

Last edited by Sailormann : 04-23-2008 at 01:01 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
seabreeze_97 seabreeze_97 is offline
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It's not a plastic?
Better tell wikipedia:
"Polyester resin is also known as a thermosetting plastic, which implies the plastic sets at high temperatures as opposed to thermoplastics which can be formed at high temperatures."
Ooooops.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
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Geez, this thread is full of one crazy set of speculations. As has been said, Pearsons do not have cored hulls. Some deflection (especially on a smallish boat from the days before internal framing systems were common) at the jackstands on a non-cored hull is perfectly normal and non-destructive. If the indentation isn't too deep there is no reason to flinch. Walk around any boatyard at the end of the winter storage season and you will see that some dimpling on non-cored hulls is more common than not.

I would only be concerned if the dimpling is deep, shows signs of spider cracking, or has been like that for long periods of time. If the indentation is deep enough to be of concern, see if you can get a surveryor to look at it quickly prior to making an offer. (Some surveyors will do a quick first look at a boat for under $100 dollars.)

Fiberglass hulls will tolerate a whole lot of deflection, but repetative deflections will cause fatigue over time.

Jeff
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
Giulietta Giulietta is offline
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Rd..you're fine. Don't worry that is not a problem. Just get going..you will need to worry about other things not this.

If you see no cracks or the bend inwards is not deeper than say 1 inch..just get the boat in the water and it will diasppear..its perfectly normal.

It is normal..really...now beat it...
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
feetup feetup is offline
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Sailorman, you quote information on polystyrene and yet the discussion is on poyester. Let's keep apples with apples!
Jeff H is right, there are more non-cored hulls on the hard with deformations than not.
Also, check your engineering on glass as well. Glass, in the form we use is surprisingly elastic, but performs almost completely as a tensile member in FRP. That is the reason for kevlar and carbon fiber composites, to obtain increased rigidity by the higher youngs modulus of the fibers. The polyester resin does in fact possess elastic qualities as well, deforming under strain ofer a period of time. Check out the stress strain curves of polyester resin, glass fiber composites before you state facts that may not be true.

RD, the Pearson was built during the era where there was no empirical data to tell designers just how strong the laminate was, so the hulls were built over-thick as a precaution. They were very nice boats and would be considered a "Plastic Classic" now. There is even a website devoted to them.

Feetup

After all's been said and done, there's a lot more said than done.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
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One minor point, regarding Feetups quote "the Pearson was built during the era where there was no empirical data to tell designers just how strong the laminate was, so the hulls were built over-thick as a precaution."

You see statements like that around quite frequently but it is not precisely true. By the end of WWII there was a lot of info available about the strength and flexural deflection properties of fiberglass. Carl Alberg was working for the government designing composit fiberglass structures at the time that the Pearsons hired him to design the Triton.

The reasons that these early F.G. boats were as thick as they were is that early boat builders hoped to avoid internal framing so as to have as much interior volume as possible. As a result they were counting on the skin to span comparatively long distances.

It was also understood that fiberglass had a tendency to be comparatively flexible for its strength, and to a lesser extent that fiberglass is a fatigue prone material that does not tolerate large flexure cycles. The hull thickness was increased over the thickness required strictly for strength in order to achieve an acceptable amount of flexure.

As it worked out, the designers of the day chose as a compromise to accept a larger amount of flexure than was ideal (and certainly more than would have been expected in a wooden boat of the same weight). This compromise allowed some weight savings without going to internal framing over what it would have been required to achieve a stiffeness equal to a wooden boat. Even as it was, the glass versions of older wooden designs often had heavier weight hulls with only small gains in strength and serious losses in stiffness.

In an insurance industry study that was produced some years back, studies of actual hull panels and accident reports concluded that a combination of the materials and methods used, and the fatigue that resulted from the higher flexure cycling experienced by these boats has resulted in a substantially weakened of these hulls from their original strength such that despite their heavier panel thicknesses, they lack the strength of newer thinner, lighter, framed hulls. In other words these are tanks in weight only.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormann View Post
it's not "plastic". It's polyester resin. Check out your chemistry.
The "P" in FRP is Plastic. When you mix a resin and a hardener and form a polymer solid you have formed a basic plastic. Yes; the properties of each plastic are differing but they definitely are all a form of plastic. I think I did enough study of how plastics are formed and what constitutes a polymer plastic in college; no need to "check my chemistry".

Quote:
The colloquial concept of "plastic" as you are emplying it indicates a substance that is flexible. FWIW the usage of the term as a conversational adjective was subsequent to the introduction of the flexible chemical structures utilising crosslinked polymers and plasticisers to create a compound that is durable, elastic and economical. Plasticisers are organic liquids which dissolve in large qualities into solid polymers.

So while polyester resin which is formed from long chained monomers, may be included in the same chemical family as plastics based on its provenance, it is as fundamentally different from the flexible things we speak of as plastics as a frog is from a tree.
Are you sure about that statement? Polyester is used in everything from boat hulls to cheap suits; as is Nylon, Vinyl, etc. It's a basic plastic. Nothing more, nothing less. What gives a boat hull it's strength is the fiberglass reinforcement which BTW does have elastic properties; especially when used as a reinforcing fiber to plastic. Trust me, I know these things...

Quote:
You can sit and postulate for a long time. The OP asked whether there was any cause for concern about a dent in the bottom of a fibreglass boat. Yes there is. The dent may go away. The hull may still be strong enough that it ill never affect the performance or safety of the craft. Or it might not. Fibreglass is not an elastic material. Best err on the side of caution.
What postulation? He is asking if there is damage. The answer is: generally it is not permanent; but if severe it might not retract. Without looking I can't say; and it's a question for someone (like a qualified surveyor) to inspect.

If a survey reports that there was prior hull damage in the area and it is acutally a "soft spot"; then decide if you want to look for a hull that has not had any damage; or have it fixed as part of the purchase agreement.

Before you go shooting your mouth off with speculations about what "plastic" is, whether FRP has elastic properties, or if a fiberglass hull will or will not flex or elastically deform; you might consider the fact that other people on this forum have brains also and quite possibly more knowledge and/or experience on a particular subject than you with the help of google or wikipedia. FWIW I majored in both Mechanical & Mat Sci Engineering; we studied plastics and their chemical, physical and mechanical properties up the wazoo so I think I'm qualified to make some generalizations on them...
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
In an insurance industry study that was produced some years back, studies of actual hull panels and accident reports concluded that a combination of the materials and methods used, and the fatigue that resulted from the higher flexure cycling experienced by these boats has resulted in a substantially weakened of these hulls from their original strength such that despite their heavier panel thicknesses, they lack the strength of newer thinner, lighter, framed hulls. In other words these are tanks in weight only.
I don't buy it. I think that the Insurance industry is looking for as many reasons as possible (wether truethfully represented or not) to deem older boats non-insurable to limit their liability in the boating industry. It can be difficult to obtain insurance on an older FRP hull; nearly impossible for a wood hull. But if wood is stronger than FRP; why should wood be a bigger risk? Why would an old boat be a bigger risk than new? Simply because older boats are more prone to dis-repair and failure due to other faults. So the insurance industry loves to hand out policies on shiny new boats (the ones that don't "need" hull insurance aside from their investment value); and also loves to find reasons to deem an old boat a bigger risk.

I think the reason hull thicknesses were so heavy in older construction boats was to emulate the hull thickness/strength of an equivalent wood hull. In practice an FRP layup would be much stronger for the equivalent thickness planked hull and so they were "overbuilt". To say that an over-built "brick shithouse" design is more prone to fatigue is an oxymoron in most engineering applications. The FRP used in boats built today are directional laminates, engineered to take more stress and therefore can be thinner (in addition to FEA analysis which allows the design to be closer to the failure/fatigue limits). A new boat is probably designed on a 15 year service life of hull for fatigue; where an older, thicker hull might be infinite due to lower fiber stress levels.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
seabreeze_97 seabreeze_97 is offline
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In weight only??? In weight ONLY!!! Like Hell! I tell you what, Jeff. Let's line up and run head on. I guarantee you my Bristol 32 will sink your Farr!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
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There was a time when you could read the insurance study online but I have searched and not found it lately. The jist of the study was that marine insurance companies began noticing a trend that more extensive hull damage was occuring in accidents on older boats relative to newer boats than should have been predictable from the accident descriptions. The study began by looking at actual damaged boats of all periods and trying to quantify the extent of damage that occurred in comparatively routine types of collisions. There was a conclusion that in general the damage to older boats was more extensive than would be expected. (I considered that part of the study to be a little suspect since its hard to quantify the amount of impact that the vessel incurred.)

The study went on to do destruction testing of panels taken from actual boats built over a long period of time. What they found was that the older panels had subtantially lower impact and bending strength than could be expected by calculations based on the typical calculated strengths.

The actual bending and impact strengths were very low (I don't recall the actual numbers but I seem to recall that they were something on the order of 50%-60% of what would be expected). The report then looked at why these numbers were coming out low. The report attributed the problem to a variety of reasons. As I remember these in no particular order, the report mentioned the following factors:

-How the glass fabrics were handled; the report explained that early builders routinely cut the glass fabriics and then stored them folded prior to layup. since some point in the 1970's this practice was changes such that laminates are no longer folded. The fold lines weakened the glass fibers.

-Early boat builders were less precise in their mixing procedures and used larger amounts of accellerators. This resulted in a resin that started out more brittle than later resins and became increasingly more brittle over time.

-Early boat builders used excessively resin rich laminates which contributed to the higher fatigue rates noted on older laminates, as well as to the internal sheer failures parrallel to the reinforcing that were observed in destructive testing.

-The method used to produce fiberglass fibers in the early days produced shorter, more brittle fibers that as a result required more careful handling prior to layup (which they did not receive) and which were more prone to fatigue than new fabrics.

-Early laminates used a proportionaly larger percentage of non-directional materials (mostly mat but in some cases chopped glass) to bulk up the laminate. Impact and fatigue related failures tended to occur more frequently in these non-directional laminates.

-The panel sizes employed on earlier boats were several times the span of those on later boats with interior framing. This resulted in larger amounts of flexure, a higher number of bending cycles, higher concentrated stresses at hardspots and higher tensile stresses within the laminate, all of which resulted in significant and measurably higher amounts of fatigue.

-Safety factors were actually lower on earlier designs because to achieve the later post Fastnet safety factors without using framing the boats would have been prohibitively heavy.

While I know that this seems counter-intuitive, if you spend some time walking around boat yards looking at these older 1960's and early 1970's era boats and compare them to just slighly later boats, it is pretty easy to find fairly large areas with signs flexural cracking as compared to even slightly later designs with internal framing systems and better laminate materials and methods.

Seabreeze, its amusing and easy to make statements like your Bristol 32 would sink my Farr but with all due respect I'm not sure that kind of rhethoric really adds much to this discussion. In that vein, my only anecdotal evidence to add to this discussion (and I realize this is a very small not very scientific sample using the Laser 28 which were unusally well constructed using vinylester resin, kevlar laminate, a closely spaced framing system, vaccum bagging and a high density foam coring) is one that I cited the last time someone made a similar rhetorical statement.

Back in the mid-1990's a thunder storm came through just before the start of one of the Annapolis Wed. night races and in the blinding rainstorm a Laser 28 and a Alberg 30 (at literally twice the weight of the Laser 28 and with a slightly lower ballast to weight ratio) came together. They saw each other at the last moment and spun head to wind, colliding topside to topside.

After the race, there was no sign of the impact on the Laser 28 while the Alberg had a large spider cracked area roughly 2'-3' feet in length at the point of impact and torn tabbing on the bunk flat below the point of impact. The Laser 28 was sold roughly 5 years later and the surveyor looked for damage in that area and found none. I raced on that Laser 28 roughly 6-7 years later and the boat still showed no signs of damage at the impact area.

Respectfully,
Jeff

Last edited by Jeff_H : 04-24-2008 at 12:05 PM.
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