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  #21  
Old 06-14-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eMKay View Post
Well that was very informative, giving a pretty clear picture as to what might have happened.
For sure. Adding credence to CD's theory of a very hard collision or as it turns out, allision -- just not on this voyage.

This will be interesting to follow as it plays out. I hope the investigation is even half as thorough as was conducted for the boat in Plumper's link.
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  #22  
Old 06-14-2008
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One wonders if the boat was surveyed after the grounding or after the keel repairs.

When you do such things on a ship you have to have the American Bureau of shipping inspector sign off on the repairs. And the nature of their inspection is such that you cannot just fix the keel while ignoring the structure around it. I'm not blaming the repair shop but I have little trouble envisioning how "just fix the keel" could lead to overlooking or ignoring adjacent or contiguous damage.
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  #23  
Old 06-14-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRPollard View Post
CD,

I think it's more likely that the length and width of the keel base (where it attaches to the hull) is of more significance in how or whether the keel can survive an impact without major damage to itself or the hull.

D
Also these dimensions would affect the fatigue life of the keel bolts. The keel structure as indicated on the info sheet referenced earlier shows a very long high aspect ratio keel with most of the weight located in a bulb at the bottom. The flex induced at the kee/hull joint must be tremendous and should it result in over-flexing, it could fatigue the keel bolts.
Speculation is delicious. Just wish it didn't involve the loss of a good sailor's life.
John
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  #24  
Old 06-16-2008
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Yachting world? any way, the british rag that does the european boat of the year reviews etc, in IIRC Mar/ april, or april may....any way, did a 2 month /part article on current design keels etc. It was not good for current designs in that they bulb is placing more stress on keels than past keel designs. While the current crop of boat keels, boats etc, are fast, stable etc, as compared to say the latter IOR designs, the keel loads are higher than thought initially, hence many keel issues like this one.

Now that I have given my above paragraph of info, I have not looked at the link that mentions the grounding of this boat back a yr or so ago. So above article may not apply to this boats keel falling off. Then again, it could be a small factor like the previous article on the keel design. A high % of fault, but not the only cause/reason.

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  #25  
Old 06-16-2008
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There may be one possible clue in the Huston Chronical article. The boat builder mentioned that the keel bolts loosened and had to be tightened. That suggests that the bolts may have stretched or been withdrawn from the lead. Modern production keels use a 'J' bolts rather than having nuts at both ends. Properly formed and shaped, 'J' bolts can produce an embedment with the full strength of the bolt. But there is a trade off between too sharp a bend which weakens the bolt, and too soft a bend which can allow the bolt to slide out.

The loose bolts suggest that the bolts may have slid within the casting. Once that happens the other bolts are stressed much harder than they would have been. Engineering these new high aspect ratio bulb keels require more skill and care than more traditional keels, but there is no reason they cannot be as strong or stronger than a more conventional keels.

Typically these keels do require higher safety factors. which brings us to Bruce Merek. Merek is a highly respected engineer and his comments suggest that he used reasonable care. People make mistakes and there are times when the actual as-built boat is at odds with the engineers design, but without more info I'd be hesitant to point fingers quite yet.

Jeff
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  #26  
Old 06-16-2008
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Sad .. Reminds me of Mike Plant and COYOTE...

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  #27  
Old 06-17-2008
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Coyote was a sad and complicated failure. a massive collection of bad things rolled into one. Coyote was designed with a carbon fiber fin keel with a bulb at the bottom. This was early in the use of carbon fiber and the world did not quite know how to handle it as well as it does today, when Nissan makes dashboards out of the stuff. Coyote's keel was supposed to have a thick stainless steel plate at the bottom that was strapped into keel by carbon fiber that crossed the bottom of the plate. If I remember correctly there were supposed to be access holes that allowed the bulb to be through-bolted to that plate. Instead, the plate was drilled and tapped and threaded keel bolts bolted into it.

Then to add to the problem Coyote had a 24 volt (might have been 32 volt) electrical system that was grounded through the keel. This system never quite worked right and so would short out and shut down (perhaps running stray voltage through the keel).

Then we get to the electrolytic properties of carbon fiber, and stainless steel in contact with each other, both being electrolytically active, and add that stray current and then the non-passification of a drilled and tapped thread on the stainless steel plate.

Oh and did I mention that Coyote ran aground at speed (and remeber that 'at speed' is the speed of a very fast 60 footer under full sail) on the way out of the Chesapeake after the Annapolis Boat show and was pulled for a hundred yards while still aground by a powerful towboat.

Michael Plant was a good sailor and his loss was tragic. The Family of Plant, Concordia who built Coyote and Martin who designed her reached a settlement to a suit that followed, the facts of which were sealed and so the details beyond second hand info really never got out.

Jeff
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  #28  
Old 06-18-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
I should probably do a search, BUT, I seem to recall this boat being discussed here one other time, and an employee, disgruntled as I recall brought some issues up on a 3 yr old thread, new boat buying area?!?!?! I do not recall it saying anything bad about construction, then again........

I have to admit, I have not heard of any issues besides this one on this boat at this time. If they hit something, say a slighty submerged ocean container, IIRC one per day falls off a ship some where in our oceans, then it would not matter "WHAT" brand it was, the keel might get stripped off depending upon speed etc.

Marty
I wrote the response, am not a disgruntled employee. I deleted it. I have hesitated responding here, but feel a responsibility to all in the sailing community.
I am an advanced composites builder with over 30 years of hands on building experience. I have been racing sailboats since I was 6. That's all the self promoting I care to get into, I am not interested in the spot light and have taken actions to stay below the radar for years.
I was hired to build a 32 ft sport boat in '99. It grew for many reasons. Too much detail for this post.
I built the prototype hull and tooling. Hull#1 is the boat mentioned at the Annapolis Boat Show. No liners, all structure and built to race in the Bermuda 1-2.
These are build details as I understand them: The production boats "may" have eliminated the extensive structure and replaced it with liners. They are a combination of Vinylester and epoxy resins in a single hull laminate. Some are cored some are not.

Shots of the boat before the repair (note {I still have a lump in my throat after seeing this}the footprint of the keel tooled from the prototype):



Other points of interest:
WHAT is that shim? Is it a spacer?
That keel looks to be attatched, but has gone through some extensive movement.
Footprint appears to be less the "as built" by nearly half.
What is that brown goo running down the keel?
Sure looks like that keel rotated back and forth on that shim/spacer, since the shim/spacer seems to have a RADIUS!
Prototype had no keel sump to allow for limited, uninterupted, continuous fibers. After sailing with the owner on his other boat, I built a 9 in solid glass plank from stem to stern. The entire stem is several inches of solid glass, certainly more effort than production would allow.
After completing the tooling, I removed the protoype from the mold and the deck mold off the deck plug. I had given CFYW a year to complete the first hull and tooling. I refused to build the deck and moved on to my next project. I saw the first race version in their shop in '03 and had a fit, they called it lobbing grenades. That slab keel was designed (was told my designer and company owner) to make for easy draft changes............Mars wouldn't need to build several plugs! One very very deep plug, just stuck in the sand at different depths.........................
IF the production boat had eliminated structure for liner, reduced floor heights for headroom AND reduced the bonding/bolting surfaces on a deeper heavier keel............................
I am not disgruntled, I am disgusted.
I am sorry to the sailing community, but I have a conscience.

Last edited by PROSS; 06-18-2008 at 04:20 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-18-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROSS View Post
I wrote the response, am not a disgruntled employee. I deleted it. I have hesitated responding here, but feel a responsibility to all in the sailing community.
I am an advanced composites builder with over 30 years of hands on building experience. I have been racing sailboats since I was 6. That's all the self promoting I care to get into, I am not interested in the spot light and have taken actions to stay below the radar for years.
I was hired to build a 32 ft sport boat in '99. It grew for many reasons. Too much detail for this post.
I built the prototype hull and tooling. Hull#1 is the boat mentioned at the Annapolis Boat Show. No liners, all structure and built to race in the Bermuda 1-2.
These are build details as I understand them: The production boats "may" have eliminated the extensive structure and replaced it with liners. They are a combination of Vinylester and epoxy resins in a single hull laminate. Some are cored some are not.

Shots of the boat before the repair (note {I still have a lump in my throat after seeing this}the footprint of the keel tooled from the prototype):



Other points of interest:
WHAT is that shim? Is it a spacer?
That keel looks to be attatched, but has gone through some extensive movement.
Footprint appears to be less the "as built" by nearly half.
What is that brown goo running down the keel?
Sure looks like that keel rotated back and forth on that shim/spacer, since the shim/spacer seems to have a RADIUS!
Prototype had no keel sump to allow for limited, uninterupted, continuous fibers. After sailing with the owner on his other boat, I built a 9 in solid glass plank from stem to stern. The entire stem is several inches of solid glass, certainly more effort than production would allow.
After completing the tooling, I removed the protoype from the mold and the deck mold off the deck plug. I had given CFYW a year to complete the first hull and tooling. I refused to build the deck and moved on to my next project.
IF the production boat had eliminated structure for liner, reduced floor heights for headroom AND reduced the bonding/bolting surfaces on a deeper heavier keel............................
I am not disgruntled, I am disgusted.
I am sorry to the sailing community, but I have a conscience.
PROSS,

Thanks for your contribution to this thread. That is a lot of info you provided -- pictures speak volumes, etc. Give us time to absorb this data and hopefully you will be willing to standby and respond to questions? Thanks.
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  #30  
Old 06-18-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROSS View Post
I wrote the response, am not a disgruntled employee. I deleted it. I have hesitated responding here, but feel a responsibility to all in the sailing community.
I am an advanced composites builder with over 30 years of hands on building experience. I have been racing sailboats since I was 6. That's all the self promoting I care to get into, I am not interested in the spot light and have taken actions to stay below the radar for years.
I was hired to build a 32 ft sport boat in '99. It grew for many reasons. Too much detail for this post.
I built the prototype hull and tooling. Hull#1 is the boat mentioned at the Annapolis Boat Show. No liners, all structure and built to race in the Bermuda 1-2.
These are build details as I understand them: The production boats "may" have eliminated the extensive structure and replaced it with liners. They are a combination of Vinylester and epoxy resins in a single hull laminate. Some are cored some are not.

Shots of the boat before the repair (note {I still have a lump in my throat after seeing this}the footprint of the keel tooled from the prototype):



Other points of interest:
WHAT is that shim? Is it a spacer?
That keel looks to be attatched, but has gone through some extensive movement.
Footprint appears to be less the "as built" by nearly half.
What is that brown goo running down the keel?
Sure looks like that keel rotated back and forth on that shim/spacer, since the shim/spacer seems to have a RADIUS!
Prototype had no keel sump to allow for limited, uninterupted, continuous fibers. After sailing with the owner on his other boat, I built a 9 in solid glass plank from stem to stern. The entire stem is several inches of solid glass, certainly more effort than production would allow.
After completing the tooling, I removed the protoype from the mold and the deck mold off the deck plug. I had given CFYW a year to complete the first hull and tooling. I refused to build the deck and moved on to my next project. I saw the first race version in their shop in '03 and had a fit, they called it lobbing grenades. That slab keel was designed (was told my designer and company owner) to make for easy draft changes............Mars wouldn't need to build several plugs! One very very deep plug, just stuck in the sand at different depths.........................
IF the production boat had eliminated structure for liner, reduced floor heights for headroom AND reduced the bonding/bolting surfaces on a deeper heavier keel............................
I am not disgruntled, I am disgusted.
I am sorry to the sailing community, but I have a conscience.
It is hard for me to even look at those pics. I cannot even imagine...

- CD
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