The Naval Academy has a variety of boats in thier sail training program livery. Everything from Lasers and J-24's to some 50-60 foot full blown, no hold barred raceboats. They also have the Navy 44's which were developed through extensive testing and evaluation, and are intended to be robust and durable. The Navy 44's take tremendous abuse. I attended a couple presentations and had lunch with a presenter and at one point I think it was said something like one of the Navy 44's are in a collision on average at least once a week, and one goes aground daily. I may be remembering that wrong but it was something approaching that frequency. In any event the new Navy 44's were designed with that kind of abuse in mind.
The fact that the keel is more extreme or that the boat's have a post hung rudder (after all Island Packets have post hung rudders that are nearly the same depth as thier keels, what could be more vulnerable than that) means little in terms of standing up to that kind of abuse if the boat is properly engineered, but of course there-in lies the big if.
So A&M should have said no thanks and not taken the boats; or taken them and sold them both to raise money for a better design (that would go over well with the donor/builder now wouldn't it).
Not necessarily. They could have accepted them gratefully, but evaluated their suitability for an off-shore race program. They would certainly make a good platform for buoy racing, provided they also assessed whether the keel design and deep draft made sense in the shoal waters where they would primarily be sailed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR
IMHO 1800 bucks in material is a lot of taking care of - and note he did take it to a MARINE yard to presumably have it eyeballed.
If I'm not mistaken the $1800+ figure was the repair yard's bill for the entire repair -- materials, labor, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnshasteen
I've been an Anapolis a number of times and have the seen the Navy 44's bobbing in their slips, but always assumed by their traditional look topside, that they probably had long fin keels with skeg hung rudders and protected props. Seeing the actual underbody design in the link, I was quite surprised - the rudder is vulnerable to groundings, the prop is hung out to dry and the keel is glued and screwed on - not at all what I would have expected for those boats - they are sail trainers - they should be tough enough for students to screw up and not seriously damage the vessel.
John, I'm not sure which version of the 44 you were observing. The first of these newest Mark IIs only began delivery in the past year or two. There was a somewhat heavier STC version prior to this MArk II, built I believe by the old Pearson Yachts. And prior to that were the Luders 44 yawls -- which were nice old full keelers, slow and wet -- the only one of the three 44 footer models that I've sailed aboard.
If you study the design brief overview (PDF that I linked to), you'll see that special attention and priority was placed on a beefy keel stub to make the Mark IIs much less susceptible to damage from grounding -- which they anticipate will occur with some regularity due to the nature of the program (see Jeff's latest note). Although I would personally prefer a skeg hung rudder for dedicated off-shore cruising, this design is also used for buoy racing, so a stoutly built spade rudder (note that it is specifically engineered to withstand damage from rearward surge) represents a reasonable compromise between performance and survivability.
As for the keel arrangement, many sailors feel a properly designed "glued and screwed" attached keel is in many respects preferable and safer than an internally ballasted, fibreglass encapsulated keel. For my part, there's nothing about this 44's keel design that would worry me for off-shore work.
One final observation: As Jeff points out, the Naval Academy does inherit more than a few "no hold barred raceboats." However, to the best of my knowledge those boats primarily get limited use in the club racing on Chesapeake Bay, typically being sold out of the program after a relatively short stay (proceeds going to support the program). I'm not aware that they are often or ever used in the off-shore sailing program, and I don't think that was what Jeff suggested either.
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Pacific Seacraft Crealock 31
Last edited by JohnRPollard : 07-23-2008 at 07:42 PM.
John, I'm not sure which version of the 44 you were observing. The first of these newest Mark IIs only began delivery in the past year or two. There was a somewhat heavier STC version prior to this MArk II, built I believe by the old Pearson Yachts. And prior to that were the Luders 44 yawls -- which were nice old full keelers, slow and wet -- the only one of the three 44 footer models that I've sailed aboard..
I was there in the early 90's to re-write the insurance and risk management manuals and wandered the docks, so the 44's at the time had to be the earlier, beefier models. That makes sense because what I saw were boats that looked a Luders 44 - solid, seaworthy looking boats. You've probably already figured out that I have complete disdain for artfully-shaped fin keels and spade rudders on any boat that might consider going to sea. At any time, a percentage of the boats out of the water for repairs at Southern Yachts in Watergate, off of Galveston Bay, are Beneatu's with damaged rudder posts - yet people go around the world in them.
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s/v Paloma, Bristol 29.9, #141
Paloma finally in her new slip in Bahia Marina, easy access to the Gulf
Here's an article posted at the Texas Monthly website by a sailor who was on one of the other boats participating in the Regatta de Amigos. She provides more information on sea conditions during the race. Most of the info we have seen before but there a few new bits...
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Sailingdog Telstar 28
New England
You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.
—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)
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I've been on the this forum almost a year, and that's long enough to know that MOST of you would have pulled the boat and done the repairs yourself after asking for advice. Hell we have folks that have never mixed epoxy doing more extensive repairs using the advice of some of you.
There is one big differance Chuck...Our boats arnt commissioned for service by a public entity ...When I had employees i always had certified welders do the repairs to my booms and anything else where a possible failure could cost one of there lives...now that its just me I weld all my own stuff..if it fails and kills me so what...but I never had that attitude with employees lives.
As I understand it, one facet of the USCG investigation will address whether the Texas A&M offshore sailing program should have been considered a "sailing school". If so, there would have been required USCG inspections and oversight.
Perhaps I can clear up some of the details on how the sailing programs work at, at least, the federal academies. The vast majority of boats donated are turned around and sold as quickly as possible. Usually the only boats to actually make it to the academy itself are locally donated boats. The profits from those sales then go towards purchasing the boats and gear that the academy's sailing team actually can use. Once in a while a boat that meets what the school needs is donated and then it might be kept. It's also not uncommon to have a boat for a couple of years that is being offered for sale but, in the meantime, is being sailed by the school's sailing team for either fun or competition.
Kings Point ended up with the A/C boat from Ted Turner's last entry in the A/C. I want to say her name was Courageous. There was some deal at the time, apparently legal, that if KP "sponsored" the boat, or maybe it was the alumni association that did that, that the school ended up with the boat afterwards. It took a long time to find a sucker to buy that boat afterwards, I know that. Then again, maybe Alcoa eventually bought her and she ended her days covering pot pies. I don't remember.
__________________ The brain is merely a knot that keeps the spinal cord from unraveling.
Here's an article posted at the Texas Monthly website by a sailor who was on one of the other boats participating in the Regatta de Amigos. She provides more information on sea conditions during the race. Most of the info we have seen before but there a few new bits... Troubled Waters: Texas Monthly August 2008
Good article, well written. Thanks for posting it. Interesting is her description of the winds and seas that day, it's somewhat typical of many of the sailors that park their boats on the upper reaches of Galveston Bay (Lakewod YC is well up into Clear Lake, North of the Bay) - they spend most of the their sailing time on Galveston Bay where your biggest issue is, "will there be enough wind to move my boat" and "will I run aground if I sail over there?". That's similar to a lot of the boats that go on the Regatta de Amigos in the cruising classes. To many of them, going offshore (a 45 mile or so, sail/motorsail down to the Gulf, is a rare occurrence and even typical offshore conditions are the exception to the majority of their sailing activities.
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s/v Paloma, Bristol 29.9, #141
Paloma finally in her new slip in Bahia Marina, easy access to the Gulf
Last edited by johnshasteen : 07-24-2008 at 01:11 PM.
Reading the description that was written in by Patricia Heart; while the conditions might have been rough with confused seas I don't see anything that should cause a keel to part from the hull. Steep 6-8' seas are standard fare outside of the SF Gate and while not comfortable it's not something that I would be afraid that a ~40 boat could handle. Routinely heavier seas and strong currents make the Gulf of the Farallones one of the most treacherous sailing areas in the PNW; most sailors choose to stay inside SF bay where the winds are heavy but predictable and the swell has dissipated.
Maybe it depends on the boat; light displacement boats like Rosalita (a Beneteau First 44.7) really don't like to pound through square waves. They tend to take a beating because of the light construction and flat bottom/shallow draft design. If you are tacking into seas that are dead ahead of you I can see how the boat/crew would be taking a beating; but still you should not be in fear of a keel separation.
With conditions like those described a keel attachment would be more prone to fatigue failure because of the repeated stressing/flexing of the hull at the joint. When I looked at the pictures of the hull it appeared to me that the exterior hull laminate had separated from the web of fiberglass that attaches the stringers to the hull. The thickness of that layer which forms the stringer did not appear to be more than one or two layers of cloth; but I can't tell for sure. If that is true than it's would be easy to understand why a prior delamination due to keel grounding could go un-noticed as a structural problem; and it shows that some designs while initially "strong enough" can quickly become fatigue prone if damaged.
Personally I think the failure was due to the prior keel damage. It's possible that everything was done right to fix the visible damage but the unseen damage to the laminate was non-repairable and could not be seen. Only the people who did the work know how serious the damage was and if they could have done a more thorough job of repair. It seems to me that the damage and subsequent repair should have been assessed by a marine surveyor or naval architect/engineer (given that the boat was being used as a training vessel for the school's sailing program). That's not an unwise decision for any boat that has had keel damage BTW.
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