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Is this gash fixable?

5K views 26 replies 14 participants last post by  mikehoyt 
#1 ·
#2 · (Edited)
JC...We would have gotten around to all your questions on your other thread...I can tell your excited and want answers NOW...:)

1) It's fiberglass!...anything ( almost ) is fixable..

2) What is the rusting streaks coming from the damaged area?


Edit....First impressions....dont try to turn this into a show boat....a little money a lot of sailing ( inshore ) and move on...with that in mind you can have a capable boat to learn on...very cheap
 
#3 ·
Hah.. sorry. Yes I am eager. However not being entirely new to forums I figure that 80% of the people who look in the maint/help threads don't read things like Hello.

As for the streaks, the cabin hatch was left open and water was getting into the cabin, as well as there is some sort of vent at the bow that has no cover.

I can only assume that water got into the compartment on the inside and leaked out through the crack.

I got the boat from my father-in-law and he got it pretty much in the condition its in new about 5 years ago.

I haven't dug around the area where the gash is and I'm just worried how much I'll have to but out to fix it.

Would there be a size limit that wouldn't be 'safe' to have a patch under the waterline?
 
#4 ·
Yes. What you need to do is cut it out until you reach the point where the gash is all gone and you have solid parent material. Don't try fixing it without knowing where the gash really ends. Then evaluate how to rebuild the hole with new fiberglass. I suspect that boat is solid fiberglass but very thin. If I am wrong and it has a wood core, you gotta get any wet or damaged wood out of there.

Have fun......

C
 
#5 ·
OK..

The reason I asked is possible rusting of internal shroud anchors...but it looks too low for that anyway...

1) Have you any fiber glassing experience at all?

2) Are you willing to learn and read a book about it?

3) It ain't rocket science

4) Follow advice of SYM and do some exploring of the surrounding area with a hammer tapping lightly on the hull to find solid glass...you are looking to isolate the mushy sounding thud of damaged glass to the solid higher pitched knock of good glass..This will be a good indication of your damaged area...of course you will be feathering back farther into good glass, but this will tell you within a couple minutes if the whole side of the boat is fractured or if its limited to what we see in the photos..
 
#6 ·
OK..
The reason I asked is possible rusting of internal shroud anchors...but it looks too low for that anyway...
No core, and the gash is actually on the bottom more than the side. The interior picture is inside one of the bench compartments in the cabin.

1) Have you any fiber glassing experience at all?
A little, meaning I've put down glass and mixed resin once.

2) Are you willing to learn and read a book about it?
I've never been afraid to try something new, and hey, since I got the hull for free whats the worse I could do, make it not seaworthy?

4) Follow advice of SYM and do some exploring of the surrounding area with a hammer tapping lightly on the hull to find solid glass...you are looking to isolate the mushy sounding thud of damaged glass to the solid higher pitched knock of good glass..This will be a good indication of your damaged area...of course you will be feathering back farther into good glass, but this will tell you within a couple minutes if the whole side of the boat is fractured or if its limited to what we see in the photos..
Thanks for the adivce. Both of you. :)
 
#7 ·
I'd recommend picking up Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual. It's fairly comprehensive and will have most of the knowledge you need contained within for such a project boat. You'll also want to get a hold of the westsystem pamphlets of fiberglass repair using epoxy. West Marine usually stocks them and there's good solid advice and techniques that, coupled with Casey's advise, should see you through. Looks eminently repairable to me and using the above two resources will prevent you from making many time consuming mistakes in your efforts.
 
#8 ·
Yes it can be repaired. I would use biaxial cloth and west system epoxy. If you can get to the inside I would repair it from both sides. Start by taking a grinder and grinding out the damaged area back to good fiberglass mat in the hull. Hopefully it is solid glass and no core. Also grind the inside to put some teeth into it. Once the wound is cleaned out take duct tape and cover the outside as a mold you can use plastic over the area that is open to the new glass and use the tape for strength. Then lay several layers of cloth and resin over the inside. Assuming this is under a berth or seat layup three or four layers inside and make the patch larger than the damaged area. Let this cure up for a day or two. Then take the tape off of the outside. The repair outside will be to fair the hull back out as the inside patch will put the strength back in. Depending on how deep and thick the hull is you will likely be able to put a layer of cloth outside as well. Keep in mind you are trying to maintain hull shape so don't build it up to much. Then use the west system epoxy with the proper filler to fair it out. You will need to build it slightly high then go back after wards and sand it to shape. Don't over apply it as it is very hard to sand. It appears the boat was bottom painted at some point in its life. After the repair is done it was be better to bottom paint it again as apposed to trying to polish out the old gel coat. Google West System Epoxy and you should find plenty of info on it. I would give the hull a good wash down with bleach and water and find any other areas that need attention while you are fixing it. I agree that this repair should be first as without a solid hull anything else is a waste.
Jay
 
#10 ·
About the time that this boat was built, I worked for a company that sold Ventures. My job was commissioning and working on warrantee claims for these boats. These boats were very lightly built using chopped glass construction. Even as comparatively new boats we experienced some problems with the layup. It is a littlebit difficult to tell precisely where that crack occurred, but I have seen issues with these boats where the hull cracked adjacent to and parallel to the centerboard trunk and also near the face of the seat riser. These boats experienced a lot of flexure in this area and over time fatigue and poor contruction techniques take a toll, weaking the laminate in this area. While it can be fixed, properly assessing the extent of the problem and making a proper repair will be difficult.

One minor point, as much as I agree that WEST System offers a great product, I would suggest using MAS epoxy due to its reduced allergenics and reduced amine blush properties.

Jeff
 
#11 ·
As usual, Jeff brings up some good points. Given the level of restoration needed for this boat it would be unconscionable to not make a thorough examination of the entire hull and superstructure and reinforce those points that Jeff points out as well as any others showing evidence of stress. It will be much easier to do while you're in "fiberglas mode" than doing so later and you'll be naturally inclined to do a better more thorough job.
 
#12 ·
Sailaway's point is a good one... if you're going to be fiberglassing...you might as well do all of the reinforcing that you have to do all at once.
 
#13 ·
I had a Venture 22 and really like the boat. While not an offshore boat by any means it is a good little boat and sails well. A lot of fun. I also found mine rotting in a yard and restored her. No hull work but had to replace the keel winch and all interior bulkheads needed replacing.

Get a copy of Don Casey's "This Old Boat". Packed with practical information on every aspect of your project. I refer to it often.
 
#14 ·
Just a thought on your fiberglass repair. Your boat was built using an ester resin so I would not go to the expense of an epoxy resin ( for a number of reasons). One would be that if the repair is thicker than the original hull and with a different material it will cause a rigid hard spot in the hull and new cracks will form around it causing more problems later. Polyester resin will be cheap and is easy to work with. There are countless books and videos out on how to fiberglass repair. Your best secret tool is to get a resin roller from the supplier. It will work out excess resin and make the repair a much higher quality. There is too much to list any more. In short it may not be pretty but it's under the water line.
 
#15 ·
I wouldn't use a polyester or vinylester reson for a STRUCTURAL REPAIR. The secondary bonding (adhesive) characteristics of polyester and vinylester resins basically suck compared to epoxy resins.

This is especially true if the boat you're going to be repairing is older, since the older the boat, the longer the laminate has had to cure and the fewer styrene bonding sites will be available for the polyester/vinylester resins to bind to. Using a polyester/vinylester resin on this type of repair is a pretty good way to guarantee you're be fixing it again, since it won't bond strongly enough to create a lasting repair.

BTW, epoxy resins, depending on their formulation, aren't necessarily any harder than polyester/vinylester resins and most structural repairs are done with epoxy from what I've seen.

IMHO, your advice is pretty much off the mark and I think you should probably do a bit more research on Epoxy, Polyester and vinylester resins with regards to STRUCTURAL repairs.
 
#16 ·
SD is right, epoxy has enormous advantages in terms of penetratring and peel strength properties relative to either polyester or vinylester. Epoxy is the only way to go when you are dealing with structural secondary bonds. Any increased stiffness from the repair should be mitagated by tappering the edge of the new laminate where it joins the existing work.

Jeff
 
#17 ·
From the reading I did I was under the impression that for all practical purposes polyester resin has pretty much been eclipsed for boat building/repair purposes by epoxy due to it's superior strength and adhesion to differing materials. Poly is slightly cheaper but unless you're mass producing not enough to make a significant difference. Just my 2 cents.

Mike
 
#18 ·
Polyester resin is still used by a majority of the boat builders, primarily due to cost issues. There are also some complexities to using epoxy in boat-sized projects, like the need for a curing oven to ensure proper curing of all of the epoxy resin, that have also deterred some manufacturers from moving over to epoxies.
 
#20 · (Edited)
repair issues to polyester boats

Actually I have a bachelors degree in Marine Technologies and am certified in several areas of fiberglass repair including cobalt fiberglass repair. So with an engineering degree in this stuff as well as using it for 20 years I 'm pretty confident it would be a one time fix. Also the West system is for people that can't measure proportions correctly. For those of you that don't know, Cobalt fiber glassing is a 4 part mixture.
 
#21 · (Edited)
You're basically missing the point. While you might be able to get the repair done properly using a polyester or vinylester resin, the average layperson doesn't have the skills or experience in working with polyester and vinylester resins and may not get the same results. It is far simpler and easier for an unskilled layperson to get a quality repair if they use epoxy. Having too much specialized knowledge and experience can make you give as bad advice as having none at all when speaking to the needs of the average layperson.

My guess would be that the OP doesn't have a degree in Marine Technologies and doesn't have 20 years of composite engineering experience, since they're asking for advice on an internet forum. While you may be technically correct, your biased viewpoint-due to your intimate knowledge of the materials and your vast experience-is making you less than qualified for giving advice to a neophyte boat repair person. All of the composite DIY repairs, and many of the professionally done repairs I've seen that are structural in nature were done using EPOXY resins.

Actually I have a bachelors degree in Marine Technologies and am certified in several areas of fiberglass repair including cobalt fiberglass repair. So with an engineering degree in this stuff as well as using it for 20 years I 'm pretty confident it would be a one time fix. Also the West system is for people that can't measure proportions correctly. For those of you that don't know, Cobalt fiber glassing is a 4 part mixture.
 
#22 ·
you make an excellent point dog

You are quite correct in your comment, I find mixing resins for a particular repair fairly easy and forget that not everyone has my experience in certain things. I apologize if I seemed rude in my answer. This is a great forum and I'm new to it and will work on my communication skills. For a beginner the west system can't be beat as it is all premeasured and near fool proof. I agree the adhesion of epoxy over ester resins is superior and would make a strong repair.
 
#23 ·
JC-
If you haven't been there yet, go to the West (aka Gougeon) web site. They have a free newsletter/magazine they send out, and archived copies available free for download that show detailed repair procedures. A hull repair like you want to do is fairly simple. If you call them (your dime) they'll even work up a bill of materials with you and tell you the retail cost of them.

Don't just start cutting away at the damage--you may find that it only needs to be feathered in, not cut out, and by removing less you need less new material ($$) and have an easier job rebuilding the proper hull shape.

You probably will need to unbuild the interior bench, so you can rebuild the damaged area from both sides for better strength.
 
#24 ·
I know little to nothing about composites and mixing resin. But I'm a relatively smart guy and I'm not afraid to read directions and get advice.

As for the crack. Ironically the crack is smack dab in the center of the port side bench. Its under one of the portions that is covered with fiberglass, but its not on any seam of any sort.

ATM my plans are to repair the crack and strip the paint off of everything anyway. I've glanced at Brian Gilberts website about his mac22 restoration. And planned on re-enforcing the joints as part of the project.

I haven't started anything yet as I am waiting on my copies of
Fix It and Sail by Brian Gilbert
Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair by Don Casey
Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual

to arrive.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and advice.
 
#25 ·
Good enough...let us know how it goes.
 
#26 ·
If you have already got the boat than it's certainly worth giving it a try.
I would grind away all the edges to get to base material, inside and out, and grind a fair bit either side, and let rip with a an epoxy lay-up over the damage.
With proper preparation!!! it is very strong indeed and it certainly will not leak.
Try not to over-do it on the thickness of the new lay-up or the repair will be a bit too stiff. Try to spread the stiffness as best can.

If that is the boat pictured in your profile, it looks a neat boat and looks fast. Get a jet washer on there set to "fan" pattern and you will not recognise it in a few hours. Don't get too close with the washer.... it can lift paint if too close.
 
#27 ·
JC

Couple of other points. The advice on your crack repair is all good so I will skip that as it has been covered.

1. This boat looks like it has been sitting for quite a while. There are a lot of other projects that will probably require more time and attention than the gash. Assess those as well. Concerns such as rigging, sails and motor as those are very expensive to replace...

2. I am guessing this is your first boat other than a dingy. As it is only 22 feet, pretty open and already pretty beat up I think it is an excellent learning platform for boat repair, restoration, etc.... At 22 feet all aspects are cheaper and even if you totally trash the boat by messing up the repairs you are not much further behind than where you started - unless you get hurt as a result

My advice? Consider this a learning boat. You will learn how to do fibreglass repair, cleanup, wiring, etc... and these skills will be extremely useful when looking to purchase and maintain other boats in your future. Consider this the education boat

Mike
 
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