opinions re: epoxy vs. plastic hulls, lead vs. iron keels - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 08-06-2008
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
monteh is on a distinguished road
"Given Tartan's recent track record, and how they've basically screwed a lot of the more recent buyers of the marque.... I am surprised to see a Tartan owner defending the brand ATM."

Lots of Tartan bashing from non Tartan owners. I don't get it. We know of one unhappy 3700 owner and one unhappy C&C 121 owner (from the blogs) and all the non Tartan owners come rushing in with their expert opinions on all new Tartan and C&Cs.

I'm a 3400 owner and Tartan has done a wonderful job in backing all my warranty claims. I also now other 3400 owners and a few 115 owners that are happy.

I'm convinced Tartan and C&C build the best laminate in the business. A C&C 115, on the hard, recently fell off its stands in a windstorm, crashing to the ground on its side. The boat was surveyed with nothing more than cosmetic scrape on the side of the hull where it hit the concrete. The same incident also happened to a new Jeaneau Sun Odysee and totaled it (I think Jeaneau makes a fine boat).

Obviously the benefits of epoxy laminate are real and that 115 was built right.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 08-06-2008
camaraderie's Avatar
moderate?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 13,878
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 14
camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
monteh & all ...let's move any further Tartan/C&C specific discussion to that thread under "Buying a boat" so we can keep all the relevant facts and opinions in one place.
My point for this thread is that epoxy boat building is difficult to do right and even Jacketts details some of the problems encountered in production just a few years ago and it is not simply a matter of builders being too cheap to use it as Carlsbad said.
__________________
No longer posting. Reach me by PM!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 08-07-2008
camaraderie's Avatar
moderate?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 13,878
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 14
camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
Carlsbad...your Tartan specific response has been moved to the Tartan thread. I will respond to it there.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying...rs-note-7.html
__________________
No longer posting. Reach me by PM!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 08-07-2008
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,587
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 9
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Argle,

Not with standing the Tartan/C&C debacle. A correctly built epoxy boat as stated will be lighter and stronger. MOST epoxy boats have been, or at least I seem to see, custom racing sleds of some sort, with the last 5'ish yrs lead by Tartan/C&C the attempt at putting production boats out made of epoxy. Not with standing the problems, a C&C 99 or 115 even a 110 would be on my short list if there was not the build problems, maybe only 2 real problems on my list of boats to buy.

Lead vs steel, take your pick. As you know with your Attalia, and so far with my Arcadia, steel keels work. A combo is probably the best of both worlds if you will.

Alum vs carbon. I'd take a carbon over an alum. If my mast went south tomorrow, I would get a carbon mast over replacing it with alum. Some have mentioned the lightening aspect. But in all honesty, we here in the NW US/SW Canada ie puget sound st of georgia like you are in, do not get the coud to ground lightening strikes like back east. Most lightening is cloud to cloud around here when we have a storm. I do not see as big an issue as maybe back east, but then again, knowing my pention for attempting to have the best tech I can within my budget..........away we go.

In the end, choose the material that will work best for you, with the plus's and minus's that suit you. Just like Cam has a shoal draft boat, ketch rig, I'd personally look for the deepest draft sloop rig of the same style, as we here really do not need to deal with the bridge and draft constraints he does on the east coast. Again it is a choose what works for you here in this area, not east coast if this is where you will sail for the time being.

On the other hand, if you want to stay with Jeanneau, I would look at the newer SO 35 or 37, if you want a bit more performance, look at the sunfast versions.

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 08-07-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Of course, a lot of this all depends on what you're using the boat for. If you're planning on a long South Pacific cruise...an aluminum mast would probably make far more sense... getting a carbon fiber mast repaired in the Southern Pacific in case of trouble might be a bit difficult.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 08-07-2008
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: port hope ontario canada
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
bahala is on a distinguished road
I don'y know alot about carbon fibre masts but I can tell you I own a 42 year old wooden boat that was epoxy coated ( cold moulded with 3 tonnes or lead keel and I just returned home from a 48 knottical mile trip with 10 foot waves in just less than 7.5 hours and the old girl did not leak a drop (other than my rum that broke after the second pound thru the waves .
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 08-08-2008
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,587
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 9
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
The question should be, are epoxy laminates doable at production run speeds if that is a way to call it. Still, if I had a choice I would go with epoxy over std plastic laminates. My step dad was using epoxy based items at boeing back it he late 60's and early 70's. Even coated the plywood boat he has been building for not sure how long with epoxy before it was even thought about generally speaking, ie late 70's!

One should not blast ALL epoxy based boats on the Tartan/C&C debacle that is going on. I have around puget sound any way, not seen any issues with Tartans, but do know of a couple of C&C 115's with some laminate issues. Mostly gelcoat issues, nothing structural. That still does not say to me that epoxy is NOT the way to go. Chevy was flamed for using fiberglass on the early corvettes. Now 40 some odd yrs later, the outside of my pickup bed is made of fiberglass! as are other parts of the truck!

Personally I do not see a reason to flame new tech, if it is not able to work for me at this time. I have seen it in my profession, where version 1 worked reasonably well, version 2 equal to old tech, version 3 better than old tech, and old tech is on the way out! Might take a few yrs, and multiple suppliers trying to work with it, but epoxy may as the price comes down, become the main ingredient of boat hulls, then again............it could end up something else. Was there not a time when folks said wood was what boats had to be made of, not plastic!

Anyway, off to work.

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 08-09-2008
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,587
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 9
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
carlsbad,

I have NO doubt in what you say for the most part. As I spent about 2 months racing weekly including the Seattle NOOD's on a C&C 115. Unfortunetly, that boat does have some serious gelcoat issues! ie the white is light tan! just plain ugly! A very bad job. The other boats looked very nice in comparison.

My main issue for the most part, are folks like SD that bash or seem to bash "EVERY" boat made of the substance, ie epoxy, when there are probably many many more boats out there than the two or three that were major problemed. The Tartan 3700 couple got the boat fixed, and are still sailing it, the folks with the 115 and I believe a 121 are the ones causing the most stink!

As I said IIRC earlier in this post, I personally would take an Epoxy boat over a typical fiberglass resin boat if the cost was effective to me. Hence why the C&C boats due fit my preferences for a boat if I could afford a new boat right now. With the 99, 115, then 110 in that order of preference. The Tartans, while nice boats, do not fit my performance/race wants and needs.

Some of this does not make sense, it may very well have been a bad batch of epoxy, similar to the bad resins in the 70's, where it seems a lot of boat have blisters! THen again, they may have hired a bunch of druggies at the time!

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 08-09-2008
camaraderie's Avatar
moderate?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 13,878
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 14
camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
Marty...you are a little incorrect in that two owners presently have suits against Tartan/Novis. But I take your point that no legal proof is yet in that these two boats were Novis' fault and no proof is yet in that there are widespread problems with overall quality. Nor is there proof that there are not significant issues with an abnormal % of these boats. We'll get our answers on those issues + I'm sure a lot of very interesting details when those cases are decided this fall. Even if these cases are proven on behalf of the plaintiffs...it does NOT prove that epoxy is a bad material...just that how it was used was at fault. I will keep my comments on the Tartan situation over on the Tartan thread.

I think what can be said at this point is that epoxy is a material with a lot of benefits if done correctly...and others have pointed out some examples of one-off's that have done admirably and Tartans and C&C's that are just fine with no significant problems. But it is also evident that the production type building of epoxy boats presents a real challenge and we have evidence in Jacketts (Tartan/C&C) own statements that significant changes had to be made during production due to unsatisfactory results with prior methods. No one seems to have any data on Hanse boats with this option so all one can say about epoxy I think is that it is still pretty new and unproven in use on production boats. Some may like to be on the cutting edge with this given the potential benefits...others may feel more comfortable with a wait and see position.
__________________
No longer posting. Reach me by PM!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 08-09-2008
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Carlsbad is on a distinguished road
Tartan/C&C have made over 300 boats with epoxy resin systems. As an industrial engineer and future buyer of a Tartan 4300, that's enough experience for me. Epoxy resin systems have been used successfully in composite manufacturing in other industries for many years.

I asked Tartan about the two lawsuits that Cam has frequently mentioned (again in today's posting) on this site. I have had time to check out only one; the one in Texas. As a consulting engineer, I sometimes provide consulting engineering services to insurance companies and parties to lawsuits. Tartan's people say the lawsuit is about a Yanmar saildrive unit that experienced corrosion on a Tartan 3700. I called the Yanmar distributor's office several months ago, and they acknowledged that the lawsuit was about a Yanmar saildrive unit, but in their view, it was the owner's fault for not properly maintaining it. No big surprise there. But that case has nothing to do with epoxy composite technology.

In the late 50's and early 60's when boat manufacturing changed from wooden construction to fiberglass, lots of owners clung to the belief that wood was better. Some still do! Nothing looks as good as a classic well-maintained wooden boat. Buts its pure romance, not science.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full Keel Vs. Fin or Modified Full Keel AjariBonten Sailboat Design and Construction 51 11-16-2013 02:52 AM
Fin Keel or Shoal Keel acmecoyote General Discussion (sailing related) 11 05-06-2011 04:39 PM
My First Boat...Boat Term Question... Kacper General Discussion (sailing related) 38 09-23-2008 06:52 PM
Iron Keels Versus Lead Keels twofish81 Gear & Maintenance 14 12-02-2007 01:58 PM
Iron Keels Versus Lead Keels twofish81 Sailboat Design and Construction 4 11-30-2007 10:55 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:19 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012