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  #1  
Old 08-30-2008
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Boat interior re-design, advice needed!

Hi,
Currently i am in the process of restoring an Eygthene 24 Quarter Tonner (see blog), that i bought and am restoring myself. The eventual goal next year is single handed offshore work, to make life easier, i'll define that as off shore passages without landfall of 5 days or over!

I'm not worried about the design of the boat itself being suited to this purpose, its a modest hull shape, with a 55% ballast ratio, and sea trials so far have shown it to be very capable (just very wet!) in the sailing department, i deliberately looked into boats with a good reputation for sea-worthiness before buying, and i know for a fact that one of these has crossed the pond. (Although i am aware that doesn't necessarily mean anything.)

Anyway this is getting to long winded, basically in the boat there is an interior moulding that apart from giving poor access to the hull, is breaking away in places, and i am taking the opportunity this winter to renovate the whole lot. What i need from you is ideas, and suggestions for the new layout, i am amenable to any suggestions other than buy another boat!

Plans are still lose so far, but i plan to fill all the holes (previous owner) in the bulkhead, and re-veneer it.

Any suggestions could you try and think through some of the technicalities, i.e. if you suggest to move the bulkhead to gain more space, how do the chainplates then attach? etc.

The boat is:
Length over all: 7,32 m
Length waterline: 6,35 m
Beam: 2,95 m
Draught: 1,40 m
Mast: 9,45 m
Displacement: 1955 kg
Ballast: 1020 kg
Sail Area: 25 m2
Design Year: 1973
The beam is all at deck level, it has a 6'3 waterline beam!

Basically the criteria is:
- Suitable for offshore distance work (i.e. chart table, but probably a folding or lift out one as space is limited.)
- Still sleep 4 people (but very squashed), but 2 comfortably
- Retain sea toilet, (its currently through the door and left in the forecabin)
- When your not at sea, it still needs to be liveable.
- Homely because i may be on for long periods of time.
Its the experience i want, i.e. maybe you've discovered that it helps to put some sort of screen across something or other to keep it dry etc.

And if you read all that, big thanks! (Pictures below of current layout, appreciate its a mess, that's cos i've done nothing to it yet!)



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  #2  
Old 08-31-2008
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OK I'll have a go at making things more difficult for you.
Not knowing the interior measurements doesn't help, but the basic layout don't look bad. Personally wouldn't try to incorporate a separate chart table but use the salon table, as you won't really be using it while sailing anyway. Points 2 & 3 probably best to leave as is. As regards the 'homely' part, a picture of your mom, girlfriend or a playboy calender for one, or some comfy cushions on the other is about all that would fit. Basically it's a question of with how little you can make due, as the one thing you certainly don't have too much of is space. I assume you acquired the boat recently & therefore I would recommend you first spend some time on it before you start changing things.
Good luck & happy cruising.
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Old 08-31-2008
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Compared to my last boat there's loads of space! But as you can see down below its currently a wreck, so spending time on board won't give me much of a feel for what it would be like in a better condition... (i've spent a few weekends on board already and its not homely at all!)
Hmm, but i can see now its probably not the best place to look for advice since you can't see the boat!
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Old 08-31-2008
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Having owned a 1/4 toner i can tell you that if your very young there is plenty of room for 5 days aboard in total bliss if you will..The older we get the more the bones and joints wont allow for yoga positions very long..Just keep in mind that designers install interior features where they do usually for a reason to some degree and if they move one thing they add something else to retain the hull stiffness or flex for that mater.

Torn loose Pans dosent bode well for your off shore theory of your boat but thats not up for discussion per your request so.. Whatever you do with the interior try to maintain the locations and continuity of the basic plan as is in the way of bracing is concerned.
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Old 09-01-2008
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As far as I'm concerned, the seperation of the pans and hull must be fixed, in any situation, and you must do whatever it takes to get it right.

I had the same situation with a 30' Irwin Sloop and the breakaway was not caused by age or abuse or evil spells - it was as a direct result of hull flexing caused by the keel in normal sailing. Ignoring this results in continual and worsening flexing, and finally, a catastrophic failure of the hull fiberglass adjacent to the keel body.

The breaking away of the bilge stringers is added proof of the flexing, and not a result of a tow. If it DID happen during the tow, then it may well be that the injury was cobbed back together using coarse strand mat and polyester resin in order to sell the boat. That is simply not an adequate fix.

I designed and implemented the repair of the Irwin and the owners have ever since remarked on how much stiffer the boat is and how much better she sails and points, now that the keel cannot droop and flop around.

You can do this repair. It is hard work, but not too expensive (you must use epoxy and 1708 Biaxial fabmat or the equivelent, and purchase a good grinder, a proper cannister mask and some disposable white paper suits) and it results in a properly repaired offshore boat.

I will not go into all the details here, but if you'd like to know more, email me at schoonerben@hotmail.com and I'll write out the whole process.
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Old 09-01-2008
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By pans do you mean the Hull stringers?

If so the damage was caused by us towing the boat back over a long distance on a trailer that didn't adequately support the hull over the keel. The boats are known for the keel not being supported well enough aft when on hard standing. (it dimples the hull at the aft end of the keel) However on my boat, three additional strengthening stringers have been glassed in and this problem does not occur.

The repair we used Chopped strand mat and polyester resin, after grinding back to good fibreglass three layers where added in ever widening circles to spread the load.

The plan when rebuilding the cabin is to keep the bunk structure much the same, because this probably provides some stiffening element. (Although not an awful lot because they are not tabbed in except in one or two places and it is very flimsy moulding) Also when i run the sides for the bunks inside the boat, they will reach down into the bilges and be tabbed in to form a 'longeron?' which should add more stiffness.

When i bought the boat the stringers were not in that condition, it was as a result of the road journey, there are many of these boats and i know of only one other example of this occurrence.

Since the repair it is has been put to a good test beating into a F7 gusting 8 through some very choppy tidal overfalls which has the boat absolutely smashing down into waves with the entire hull shuddering, we managed to rip the tack of the jib out (old design with a galvanised luff wire that rusted through... lesson to be learned here) but the repair hasn't moved.

If you still think the repair is inadequate could you please PM me or write it here as, it is a matter of safety! When i said about the boat what i mean't was i didn't want to be told that it is unsafe to go offshore in anything less then x length of boat etc!
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Old 09-01-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichP View Post
By pans do you mean the Hull stringers?
A pan is a single piece molded fiberglass tray or structure that is glassed into a hull to provide additional stiffening and support to the hull. It is not the same thing as hull stringers but does provide some of the same functionality.

Quote:
If so the damage was caused by us towing the boat back over a long distance on a trailer that didn't adequately support the hull over the keel. The boats are known for the keel not being supported well enough aft when on hard standing. (it dimples the hull at the aft end of the keel) However on my boat, three additional strengthening stringers have been glassed in and this problem does not occur.

The repair we used Chopped strand mat and polyester resin, after grinding back to good fibreglass three layers where added in ever widening circles to spread the load.
I'm not a big fan of using polyester resin for secondary repairs. Polyester resin has relatively poor secondary bonding characteristics, especially when compared to epoxy resins, and isn't really the best choice of materials for doing structural repairs IMHO.

Quote:
The plan when rebuilding the cabin is to keep the bunk structure much the same, because this probably provides some stiffening element. (Although not an awful lot because they are not tabbed in except in one or two places and it is very flimsy moulding) Also when i run the sides for the bunks inside the boat, they will reach down into the bilges and be tabbed in to form a 'longeron?' which should add more stiffness.

When i bought the boat the stringers were not in that condition, it was as a result of the road journey, there are many of these boats and i know of only one other example of this occurrence.

Since the repair it is has been put to a good test beating into a F7 gusting 8 through some very choppy tidal overfalls which has the boat absolutely smashing down into waves with the entire hull shuddering, we managed to rip the tack of the jib out (old design with a galvanised luff wire that rusted through... lesson to be learned here) but the repair hasn't moved.

If you still think the repair is inadequate could you please PM me or write it here as, it is a matter of safety! When i said about the boat what i mean't was i didn't want to be told that it is unsafe to go offshore in anything less then x length of boat etc!
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Old 09-01-2008
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Ok so would you suggest grinding back some of the existing repair and then going over the lot again with biaxial cloth and West System (or equiv) epoxy?
Unfortunately the mouldings are glassed in at only one point, there held in with mild steel self tappers!
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Rich-

I'm not saying it is necessary, but I would feel a lot more comfortable about it if it were my boat...then again, I would have done the entire fabrication from glass cloth and epoxy. CSM is not as strong as glass cloth, and epoxy is much stronger than polyester or vinylester resins for structural repairs.

From the West Systems website:

Quote:
Different repair resins were used to apply multiple layers of fiberglass (the largest ply first, each ply separately laid and wet out with resin) to gradually fill the beveled sections to achieve the original thickness (see sketch). The repair was allowed to cure for a few days and then the repair zone was sanded perfectly smooth. G-10 fiberglass laminate tabs were added to both ends of the tensile specimens, providing a grip area for the test machine. The samples were allowed to cure for two weeks before being cut into 1" wide samples for testing. To measure repair effectiveness, we first needed to determine the strength of undamaged DCPD blend specimens. The average tensile strength of the undamaged control laminate was 26,198 PSI.


The breaking strength of this same laminate after being repaired with polyester resin and the same fiberglass fabrics averaged 18,460 PSI or 70.5% of the original strength. In this case, the same resin used to fabricate the DCPD laminate was used in the repair. If a different polyester resin were used for the repair, it would likely not have performed as well.


The breaking strength of the control laminate after being repaired with WEST SYSTEM epoxy and the same fiberglass fabric averaged 21,404 PSI or 81.7% of the original strength.


Both repairs were done using the minimum recommended 12:1 bevel angle. Longer bevel angles at 15:1 or 20:1 will yield even higher repair strengths.
Be aware that on an older boat, the polyester's bonding strength would probably be even lower since fewer styrene receptor bonding sites would be available in an older laminate than in the relatively new two week old panels used in this test. Your boat is over thirty years old... and likely any polyester-to-polyester resin bonding is all secondary, with little or no primary bonding at all.

Finally, polyester and vinylester resins shrink considerably more than epoxy resins during the curing process, which can also lead to problems as the material cures.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Old 09-01-2008
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Hawkeye could you detail the repair you mentioned? Even if i don't go ahead i'm sure it will be an invaluable resource to members...!
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