Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Blogs               
Boat Search (new)






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
User Name
Password
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
 Like this article?  Digg It!  or   Bookmark it!
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2008
zz4gta's Avatar
zz4gta zz4gta is offline
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Leesburg VA
Posts: 1,067
Rep Power: 3
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
" all diesels smoke "
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2008
Capnblu Capnblu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 321
Rep Power: 4
Capnblu is on a distinguished road
I have no intention of turbo charging my engine. I also don't intend to drag race my lead sled. I am doing this for greater fuel efficiency. Black smoke is the result of incomplete combustion. Supercharging or turbo charging push more air into the combustion chamber. By varying the pulley size you can adjust the boost pressure. They also come in different sizes, not just ones that run at extreme boost you know. Cold air into engine = more power. Just because an engine CAN make more power doesn't mean you will use this found power to make roostertails, that is why they made a throttle on this engine (I presume). Since I can, I started by making a fresh air breathing intercooler . I also made my own POP tester for the fuel injectors, so setting, and equalizing them is a breeze. Figuring out what CFM supercharger to use and pulley setup is only a matter of a little math.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2008
sww914 sww914 is offline
wannabee
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Osos, Ca
Posts: 153
Rep Power: 2
sww914 is on a distinguished road
Engines run within a specific air/fuel ratio. On a normally aspirated gas engine the optimum ratio for the most complete combustion is 14.7:1. For max power it's about 13:1 or 13.5:1. Over about 15.5:1 and temperatures rise inside of the combustion chamber, the valves burn and your motor stops motoring, or pre-ignition occurs and it blows holes in the pistons and your motor stops motoring. I'm not a diesel mechanic and I'm not qualified to say what a proper air/fuel ratio is for a diesel, but I know for sure that you can't just bolt on a turbo or blower and go, you must enrich the mixture to within acceptable parameters, and I also know for sure that all of that black smoke is not unburnt fuel, a lot of it is the impurities inherent to diesel fuel.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Ad
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2008
zz4gta's Avatar
zz4gta zz4gta is offline
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Leesburg VA
Posts: 1,067
Rep Power: 3
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
Engines run within a specific air/fuel ratio. On a normally aspirated gas engine the optimum ratio for the most complete combustion is 14.7:1. For max power it's about 13:1 or 13.5:1. Over about 15.5:1 and temperatures rise inside of the combustion chamber, the valves burn and your motor stops motoring, or pre-ignition occurs and it blows holes in the pistons and your motor stops motoring. I'm not a diesel mechanic and I'm not qualified to say what a proper air/fuel ratio is for a diesel, but I know for sure that you can't just bolt on a turbo or blower and go, you must enrich the mixture to within acceptable parameters, and I also know for sure that all of that black smoke is not unburnt fuel, a lot of it is the impurities inherent to diesel fuel.
Agreed. Most diesel engines don't have an ECM/o2 sensors to compensate for a lean/rich mixture. So all this needs to be done with floats and jets. In addition to your " pump shot" (tip in throttle response).
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2008
sww914 sww914 is offline
wannabee
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Osos, Ca
Posts: 153
Rep Power: 2
sww914 is on a distinguished road
AFAIK all diesel engines are FI so there aren't any floats or jets, just injectors, injector pumps and computers to control the fuel flow. Floats and jets are carb parts.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2008
KeelHaulin's Avatar
KeelHaulin KeelHaulin is offline
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,011
Rep Power: 4
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
I don't think you can just slap a blower onto a diesel engine; there are many parts that would need to be specific to a diesel running a blower to accommodate it. The clearance in the piston wall might not be correct; the size of the rod journals and main bearings may need to be larger; the injection pump may need modification and it's timing may need adjustment to provide the correct amount of fuel and prevent pre-combustion. The exhaust valves and manifold may need to be larger. The base compression ratio would need to be lower so you don't end up with too high of a CR once the blower is installed. These are the things I can think of off the top of my head; not saying that they all would need to be done but certainly it would be a big project that might only yield 20-30% more HP.

I don't think you would improve efficiency; most turbo/blower applications tend to decrease efficiency to achieve more HP in the same size engine.

JMHO...
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2008
Leither's Avatar
Leither Leither is offline
Retired and happy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calvert County, MD
Posts: 210
Rep Power: 2
Leither is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
and I also know for sure that all of that black smoke is not unburnt fuel, a lot of it is the impurities inherent to diesel fuel.
Not true, I'm afraid - diesel fuel does not necessarily have any more impurities in it than gasoline. When a diesel engine is running properly, it should produce no black smoke (although it does produce microscopic particulates). In fact, the black smoke is fuel that has not had sufficient oxygen to burn properly and has broken down into carbon.

Stuart
__________________
Leith (rhymes with teeth) is the port of the City of Edinburgh in Scotland. A Leither is someone who comes from that area.

I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the sky - I left my shoes and socks there, I wonder if they're dry?
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2008
jgeissinger jgeissinger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 122
Rep Power: 8
jgeissinger is on a distinguished road
Diesels and blowers and black smoke.

Diesels are unthrottled engines, the air intake is wide open all the time. Before electronic fuel injection, mechanical injectors basically just dumped a whole bunch of fuel in the engine when given full "throttle" at low engine speeds. They had a large amount of fuel remain uncombusted until the rpms rose and the air-fuel ratio evened out. That is why you still see older diesels pumping out black smoke when accelerating, but newer ones don't. The wonders of computers.

By the way, the famous GMC blowers, the basis for all the vane type blowers seen on drag racers, were originally made for GMC two stroke diesels.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2008
US27inKS's Avatar
US27inKS US27inKS is offline
Midwest Puddle Pirate
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gardner, KS
Posts: 1,064
Rep Power: 6
US27inKS has a spectacular aura aboutUS27inKS has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
I'm not a diesel mechanic and I'm not qualified to say what a proper air/fuel ratio is for a diesel, but I know for sure that you can't just bolt on a turbo or blower and go, you must enrich the mixture to within acceptable parameters, and I also know for sure that all of that black smoke is not unburnt fuel, a lot of it is the impurities inherent to diesel fuel.
You're right about one thing, you're not a diesel mechanic. jgeissinger got this one right.

Diesels have no throttle plates, no carburetor, no way of regulating the amount of air going in at all. Engine speed and power is controlled by increasing or decreasing the amount of fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber (unlike injecting into the intake air system on a gas motor). There is no ignition system on a diesel. When air is compressed, the heat in the air is concentrated in a very small place. The more you compress it, the higher the temperature. Just touch the head on an air compressor to test this out. Fuel is then injected in the right quantity and at the right time, and it spontaneously combusts due to the high heat. Turbocharging a diesel allows you to add more fuel and generate more power, it will not do much if anything to improve fuel efficiency in a sailboat application. The downside (besides the cost for no real gain) is that the engine already operates at a very high compression ratio. Turbocharging will raise the combustion pressures beyond the designed limits of the engine, and will prematurely kill the engine.

BTW, smoke from a diesel is caused by too much fuel when throttling up as explained by jgeissinger, and lack of proper injection timing from the old mechanical injection pumps. Smoke is not caused by impurities in the diesel fuel. Impurities in your fuel will make you buy a very expensive injection pump. Have you noticed that newer diesels in pickups and euro cars don't smoke? In a lot of the euro cars, you can't even tell that it's a diesel. Computer control of the injection pressure, timing, and multiple injection pulses per cycle have cured a lot of the usual diesel problems.
__________________
John USYacht 27 "Cora Lee"
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
sailingdog sailingdog is offline
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 35,475
Rep Power: 7
sailingdog is just really nicesailingdog is just really nicesailingdog is just really nicesailingdog is just really nice
Unfortunately, these features are generally not found on marine diesels used in sailboats, since they can't tolerate a small sailboat marine environment very well.
Quote:
Computer control of the injection pressure, timing, and multiple injection pulses per cycle have cured a lot of the usual diesel problems.
__________________
Sailingdog

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this POST.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Page generated in 0.6356 seconds (72.48% PHP - 27.52% MySQL) with 14 queries
Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC8
(c) Sailnet 2000-2006