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post #21 of 63 Old 05-17-2009
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Yes, but only one manufacturer makes boats with those two specific features...

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B and R rigs coupled with roller furling mains. I though the whole point to get a high roach main that would not foul on the backstay.

Close second - travellers mounted on cockpit arches.

Really - I am not picking on any particular manufacturer.

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #22 of 63 Old 05-17-2009
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The points are well taken, but do not over-rule SD's point...

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If only that were so...
Of course I expected this response, and I support a common technical language. What I ask is might it be cleaned up a little to avoid reinventing the wheel and actually speeding the learning for novices?

Nautical terms are international only in limited cases. Try sailing with the French or Russians. I have direct experience from a schizophrenic life at sea: as young, going out in small boats in Norway, then merchant navy for years during holidays; then sailing proper in Australia and now Norway, with several nationalities. Result: I have some terms imprinted in Norwegian and struggle to recall the English in a hurry; others were only learnt in English and I scrounge around to find the Norwegian. They are not at all "common" apart from the more obvious ones. Try "kryssholt" - it means "cleat" and I have a block there all the time.

I can see no earthly reason why "left" and "right" would be misunderstood. We don't need them in cars or on bikes - one knows which way is forward and hence where "right" is. And "Head"? At one time one did go to the head, but I'd love to see your female crew to so today.
which is that you will merely develop another meta language with no advantages. But get started. You an solve it, if you like.

I think most sailors call it the "bathroom" with guests, and "the kitchen" or "bedroom" when they think it serves clarity, or they just call it the galley for fun. But if I ask a guest-sailor on my boat to tighten the vang, I don't need to turn around or to point. If the person is not a guest, I am going to have to lead them through the tangle of lines myself, anyway. What would I label that one? "The block and tackle attached from the base of the mast to the underside of the boom to pull the boom down?" I'm going to need to by bigger jammers just to hold the tags!

I sure hope it doesn't get mixed up with the "the block and tackle attached from the side of the mast to the sail at the lowest grommet accessible to pull the the sail down to pull the full part (not draft) of the sail forward" or the "the block and tackle attached to the side of the boom to the end of the boom and back to stretch the bottom (not foot) of the sail out." They are nearby.

(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

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post #23 of 63 Old 05-18-2009
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They have historic origins, it is very well for the old salt to use them for bravado, but do they for instance contribute one iota to safety onboard? Or to efficiency?
Yes, I think so, and it sets the bar a little higher for the sailing community.

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post #24 of 63 Old 05-18-2009 Thread Starter
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Yes, I think so, and it sets the bar a little higher for the sailing community.
I guess I'm on a loser here, so I defer. I had some experiences with novices that scared me, that's all, especially with the basics. Example: Right/Left is an imprinted mindset in all people. Under calm conditions it is no sweat to teach "port" (which is not universal, btw - in Norwegian it is "babord") - but when in panic there is a risk that imprints take over, you revert before thinking. I've seen novices hesitate as you shout "Port!" - when they should not hesitate.

Conventions are everything when it comes to safety, no disagreement there. I remember in horror another instance, not to be blamed on language but on imprints: I had a novice on lookout in the dark. I follow (military) convention about pointing: you spot an object and point to where it is, the cinematic "ten o'clock, Sir". It wasn't hard to teach this; "you inform, the skipper decides on action." Unfortunately, we do the opposite when giving advice on the street - "Three blocks thataway" and point.
The person spotted a dark object on the right (sorry, folks), panicked and pointed fervently - to the left, the safest way out. The skipper ( turned to - I cannot continue, the memory is too sore...

Events like this make me somewhat sceptical that "setting the bar a little higher" is good for anything other than egos. I have never heard road authorities advocating setting the bar higher in the interest of road safety. If you only sail with racers or old salts, sure, but if you have to rely on casual visitors, perhaps... but OK, nobobody agrees
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post #25 of 63 Old 05-18-2009
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Osmund—

Yes, right and left are imprinted in most people...not all... but it isn't a good reference, since it requires that you and the other person be facing the same way or that he understand whether you mean his left or your left... so it can be ambiguous when ambiguity is dangerous. Saying port means the same thing regardless of what direction your facing... port is port... there is NO AMBIGUITY.

If you say the buoy is off the port side of the boat, it clearly means one thing and one thing only. If you say the buoy is off to the left... are you facing forward, then it is off the port side of the boat, and if you're facing aft... then it is to the starboard side... and if you're facing port, it is astern and if you're facing starboard it is forward of the bow. One is an absolute term, the other is a relative term.

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Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #26 of 63 Old 05-18-2009
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There has been a little thread drift here, but here is my entry for poor design. At an Annapolis show a few years ago I saw a higher end production boat with an anchor locker that was open to the forward cabin through a teak door with standard storage locker fastenings and cane venting.

My thought was that the smell would be awful with wet muddy line in the locker. Plus the potential for getting substantial amounts of water inside the hull made me wonder why someone would make design a locker this way.

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post #27 of 63 Old 05-18-2009
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sailing dog -----i am with you on this! 70 years ago i was taught the names of things on a vessel and always use them. a head is a head & a galley is a galley, and i use no other names for them. a lookout would say he sighted something 3 points off the stbd bow but after 1940 it was degrees, zero to 360 and i found that easer. some things do change, but not often.

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post #28 of 63 Old 05-18-2009
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There are times when I agree completely, re. port/starboard

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Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
I guess I'm on a loser here, so I defer. I had some experiences with novices that scared me, that's all, especially with the basics. Example: Right/Left is an imprinted mindset in all people. Under calm conditions it is no sweat to teach "port" (which is not universal, btw - in Norwegian it is "babord") - but when in panic there is a risk that imprints take over, you revert before thinking. I've seen novices hesitate as you shout "Port!" - when they should not hesitate.

Conventions are everything when it comes to safety, no disagreement there. I remember in horror another instance, not to be blamed on language but on imprints: I had a novice on lookout in the dark. I follow (military) convention about pointing: you spot an object and point to where it is, the cinematic "ten o'clock, Sir". It wasn't hard to teach this; "you inform, the skipper decides on action." Unfortunately, we do the opposite when giving advice on the street - "Three blocks thataway" and point.
The person spotted a dark object on the right (sorry, folks), panicked and pointed fervently - to the left, the safest way out. The skipper ( turned to - I cannot continue, the memory is too sore...

Events like this make me somewhat sceptical that "setting the bar a little higher" is good for anything other than egos. I have never heard road authorities advocating setting the bar higher in the interest of road safety. If you only sail with racers or old salts, sure, but if you have to rely on casual visitors, perhaps... but OK, nobobody agrees
If I have a new person steering, I will say right or left, since there is no ambiguity and less hesitation. I may be picking up an anchor and letting a new hand steer... but as often I may just use hand signals, in that case.

Actually, I often use "right side" or "right hull" for starboard side with guests. I don't believe that is ambiguous at all. Just not very nautical.

I hope you know we were just having a bit of fun. We enjoy nautical lore and tradition. It is usefull, but it is a bit of second language and way of doing things.

(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber

Writing full-time since 2014

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post #29 of 63 Old 05-18-2009
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My worst design feature ever is interior fiberglass pan & headliners that restrict access to the hull and systems.

I will also disagree with Herb on the chain locker access. We had this same arrangement on our Tayana and it was MOST appreciated and NEVER a problem. We frequently had to open the access door to clear chain kinks or re-arrange the rode when it piled up in one place and prevented the windlass from dropping in more chain. It also allow one to get in there with a hose from time to time and clean things out.

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post #30 of 63 Old 05-18-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
Events like this make me somewhat sceptical that "setting the bar a little higher" is good for anything other than egos. I have never heard road authorities advocating setting the bar higher in the interest of road safety. If you only sail with racers or old salts, sure, but if you have to rely on casual visitors, perhaps... but OK, nobobody agrees
While I see your problem, I also see the remedy as being in training and in experience. Whether the English or the Norwegian terms are used, every seafaring European language appears to have a similar set of ultra-specific set of directions (geared to the "moving frame of reference of the boat itself), names of boat parts, names of lines (the same line can have different names at different times dependent upon its function, like lee and weather sheet), and so on. Nautical language, when mastered, is remarkably unambiguous, and when working the boat in frequently noisy and wet conditions, ambiguity is a powerful enemy.

Practice makes perfect and practice also makes clear (to me, at least) the beautiful specificity of nautical language, a critical function not only in the historical days of sail, in which knowing the names of lines and what to do with them could mean life or death, but today, where the helmsman cannot always see ahead or is available to diagnose a tangle or a wrap.

I think the cure is found in racing, where there is a strong action-reaction correspondence between an order given and a change in the boat's direction or speed. My wife and I club raced for five seasons and are among those people who cruise using language straight out of HMS Victory. We do this not out of snobbery, love of archaic language or to prove how seamanlike we are, but simply because it works. To run a 40 foot boat requires, after all, only about 20 terms and related concepts, and my use of "abaft" and "athwart" is relatively rare. Our use of "lead the portside stays'l halyard to the well and tie it to the headboard" or "lash jacklines to the bollards on the high side" is fairly common, however, and is more economical a mode of speech than almost anything else.

So when I said the "bar was a little higher", I meant that if an aspiring sailor cannot or will not master these terms, perhaps they should consider a different hobby than sailing. After all, when I get a 50-pointer in darts, I don't shout "Red cork dot!"...I shout "bullseye!" If that's confusing, perhaps one is too stupid to play with sharp little metal and plastic arrows for sport.

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