Head Location? - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-18-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 393
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jbarros is on a distinguished road
Head Location?

Well, the count down to debt free continues, and the horrible ideas for changing perfectly good boats (none of which I own at present) keep popping up.

So, I was thinking about the location of the head. On most modern boats it seems to be farther aft, just next to the companionway, and is larger than on older boats, a nice touch if you're old at heart and think of things like onboard hot water showers as less of a luxury and more of a necessity.

So the first question I have is about the trade offs involved. I know in older, narrower designs there just isn't space for the same luxurious head compartments, which sometimes have over 4 square feet of room. Almost enough to turn around in But aside from the trade off of being able to put whatever they put by the companionway instead (chart table, galley, etc) is there any advantage to having the head up by the mast step instead of back by the companionway?

If not, my second question gets a lot dumber. Given an older boat which needs work anyway, how stupid would I have to be to think about building out a head compartment aft, near the companionway, and just converting the forward head area to another locker? On a small boat (30'ish) where space is at a premium, it doesn't seem like the wisest idea, but damn it, it would create just enough room to actually take a shower while standing up, and with the head on one side and the galley on the other, puts the most used parts of the boat closest to the companionway, and means that if the table is down, and blocking the path forward, it will still be easy to get to from the cockpit.

Aside from the insanity of the act of a "remodel" (?) of the interior of a boat, what stupidity am I, theoretically of course, getting myself into that a real boat designer chose not to do?

Thanks.

-- James
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 03-18-2010
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
It really depends on the boat. Some boats just aren't really capable of having a head aft. If you want a boat with an aft head, you're really better off BUYING A BOAT with the head aft...

Re-arranging the interior of the boat will generally require the services of a marine architect, as moving or adding bulkheads to a boat can do strange things to the structure. It will kill the boat' resale value.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 03-18-2010
JohnRPollard's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 5,680
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough
I pretty well agree with SD -- Yes, it can be done, but if that's what you're looking for, why not target a boat that's already configured in that way?

Then again, if you relish that sort of challenge, go for it. If so, look for a boat that is "stick built", i.e. one that does not have structural fibreglass pans as part of the interior build out.

One thing to keep in mind, though: With boats in that size range that are originally configured with an aft head, the remainder of the interior is usually adjusted forward to provide adequate main salon accommodations. In other words, the space that might have been occupied by the forward head, is instead used by the main salon. This is how they make up for the space that has been "lost" farther aft.

So you could end up making many more adjustments than simply adding an aft head and converting the forward head to stowage. And that's where you begin to need the advice of a marine architect, as mentioned above.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Pacific Seacraft Crealock 31 #62

NEVER CALLS CRUISINGDAD BACK....CAN"T TAKE THE ACCENT
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 03-18-2010
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,904
Thanks: 3
Thanked 110 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
A head that is or about midship will be ok - but the heads further aft are preferred for offshore in my opinion. For example, and this is noooo exhageration:

We have two heads on the boat - one aft and one forward. At one point, I went forward to use the forward head as dad was in aft. Now, we were in some pretty good seas, and we were 'jumping off of them', however, I would literally come off my feet each time the seas went under us. I mean airborne and hit my head on the cabin top. As such, the forward head was completely un-useable in those conditions. Those types of conditions, though not commonplace, will and do happen offshore more than the magazines tell you.

Get an aft head configuration for offshore work. Anything forward or much forward of the mast becomes worthless in larger seas. And if you are remotely prone to sea sickness... forget it. You are better off with a bucket and Little John.

Regarding rebuilding your own head - don't even go there. Many of those things may be structural. THis is not a house. Plus, the cost involved would be more than if you just bought the right boat in the first place.

My opinions.

Brian
__________________
Sailnet Moderator



1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 03-18-2010
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 15,312
Thanks: 88
Thanked 241 Times in 232 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Have to agree with the above... simply 'moving' the head will be anything but simple - and lead to an oddity with other drawbacks as a result.

If you can't find anything on the market that suits you and you have the 'itch' to be creative that way, a bare hull might be a good starting point... then you can engineer/place bulkheads and arrange the interior to what suits you. Having said that, though, unless you've owned a few boats along the way you may not truly have a strong sense of what will work and what might not. This could lead to another expensive, odd duck with re-sale challenges.
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 03-18-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 393
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jbarros is on a distinguished road
Thanks for the unanimous advice.

Right now I'm just digging myself out of debt and trying to save up, hoping I'll have the ships bells to buy a boat and go once I'm debt free. (18 more months) Because of my situation, I'm looking in the 20k and under range, which is rather insanely low for a real cruising boat, but the Tartan 30 and Pearson Triton both have a number of models in range, the Tartan even has the possibility of a shower. I've been looking for Cape Dory 25d's but can't find a one in my price range. I've also not sailed on a CD25d, whereas I've been able to find people who took me out on Tritons and Tartan 30's and had a great time. Fun boats.

CruisingDad, While the heads on the boats I'm looking at are "forward" as opposed to by the companionway, with the exception of the CD, their aft bulkheads are right under the mast. This seems to be a really popular configuration in earlier boats, I'm presuming because the rules of the day rewarded skinny boats with low waterline lengths that wouldn't have the extra beam farther back like the modern boats?

I found it hilarious, in a sad way, that the one boat which seemed willing to dedicate some space to "personal maintenance" puts it so far into the forepeak that I can only imagine it's all but useless while under way.

Anyway, for the sucker who wants a hot water shower, and wants one on a boat he can get for next to nothing ($20k or less goal) what is the hot tip?

I've sailed a few Tritons (west coast) and I like them. I'm sure it's a sign of my own inexperience, but a small boat like the Triton makes me feel more confident when docking, etc. Also, since they seem to be found in decent condition for $10k-ish, that gives me more money to fix/customize etc.

I was looking at just putting in a shower, and while the drainage, pressure water, heater, etc are all big space issues, (doubly so on a small boat) but even if I did all of those, on, eg, a Triton, there's not room to stand up and turn around, not even in that "on a boat" sense.

Technically I think I can do the hardware installs, but the question of having room to shower is more "interesting". I thought "moving" it aft would solve this, as well as place it in a more convenient space, but from the looks of it, this would turn into way more project then I want.

Regarding the shower (And actually having room to shower)
I've decided long ago that I really need to decide what makes and breaks my own comfort when I'm doing things, and if that's what keeps me awake, alert, and happy, then my trips going to be safer and better all around. This is why I have good boots, this is why I carry more bedding in alpine environments than weight would dictate, and I'm happy with my choices in that front. Is this still practical on THIS front?

At this point it looks like my question really becomes how much do I care about having room to take a belowdecks shower, and can I do it in my price range without sacraficing seaworthiness?

The answer may be a bigger budget for a boat, but that scares me too, as every time the budget goes up, the "departure" date goes back.

Thanks for the advice. My search continues

-- James
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 03-18-2010
JohnRPollard's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 5,680
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbarros View Post
....

At this point it looks like my question really becomes how much do I care about having room to take a belowdecks shower, and can I do it in my price range without sacraficing seaworthiness?

The answer may be a bigger budget for a boat, but that scares me too, as every time the budget goes up, the "departure" date goes back.

Thanks for the advice. My search continues

-- James
James,

From my perspective, the answer IS a bigger budget. During the time it would take you to retrofit/shoehorn a dedicated aft head with shower into a small boat not originally designed for one, you could easily keep working at whatever you do a bit longer and save money to buy a more suitable boat. The way a lot of these refit projects go -- you might even shove off sooner.

As for the shower -- you might be overthinking this, or at least misplacing your priorities. I will tell you that our 31 footer has an aft head with combination shower (not a dedicated stall, but the head doubles as a shower.) We also have a cockpit shower. We use the cockpit shower far more often. So there are alternatives....

Also, while we have an aft head, and I prefer that arrangment, I wouldn't get too hung up on this requirement. It will really limit your options when looking for boats in your price/size range. For instance, since you mentioned Cape Dorys, the CD30Mk2 is a lot of boat for the money, and maybe worth saving your nickels for. Although not an aft head it does have a shower....

Cape Dory 30 Mark 2
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Pacific Seacraft Crealock 31 #62

NEVER CALLS CRUISINGDAD BACK....CAN"T TAKE THE ACCENT
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 03-18-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 393
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jbarros is on a distinguished road
Thank you again. ok, well, for now the gameplan is the same. Keep working, live low to the ground, put money in savings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 03-18-2010
blackjenner's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: in a condo
Posts: 245
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 5
blackjenner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbarros View Post
Thank you again. ok, well, for now the gameplan is the same. Keep working, live low to the ground, put money in savings.
Sounds like a good overall plan, no matter what your timetable is.
__________________
"There's nothing . . . absolutely nothing . . . half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats." -- Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows (River Rat to Mole)

1980 Baba 35 Pilot House Cutter - Brigadoon


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 03-18-2010
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Some 30' boats had a pretty decent head aft... like the O'Day 302.

The only real problem with the O'Day 302 is that you'd be sailing the same boat as Denby... and that might be a problem... especially if you've ever met him.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Updating Your Head Sue & Larry Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 12-25-2002 08:00 PM
Head Problems bootsy1962 General Discussion (sailing related) 3 02-19-2002 08:26 PM
Head Maintenance Blues Tom Wood Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 11-21-1999 08:00 PM
Head Maintenance Blues Tom Wood Her Sailnet Articles 0 11-21-1999 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:00 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.