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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
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  #11  
Old 07-04-2011
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That wasn't my point really. I think most rebuild projects come in at less than the cost of a new boat of the same size/type. The trick is to keep the total costs below the market value of the older boat.

In other words if the Widget 35 sells in good condition for 40k and you buy one as a project for 8k you do not your total investment to exceed 40k. A new comparable Widget 35 may cost 140k - it makes no difference because when you sell you are competing with the other older Widgets, not a new one.

Now if you are rebuilding for a specific set of requirements, say a long offshore trip and you want the boat equipped to a certain standard you may spend more - just don't do this with a break even resale in mind.

By the way, new boats depreciate after purchase but an older boat has depreciated just about all it can and condition rules the price to a much greater extent.
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  #12  
Old 07-04-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
To connect this to my original point though - it seems to me that very many people would regard doing that hypothetical wood job as "doable" and even sensible but the glass boats I started with should have been scrapped - that's the attitude I fail to understand.
As I pointed out earlier (not very successfully), the work required to fix a wooden boat tends to increase roughly linearly with age, whilst for a 'glass boat the curve is more exponential. This means that, at or close to that "knee point" - and wherever that might be depends upon an individual's skills or access to a skilled boatyard - the 'glass boat will theoretically be scrapped long before an equivalent wooden boat.

True, the "I can fix that" linear curve for a wooden boat does drop away sharply at the end of it's life (usually about the time the planks start to fall off!), but the uncertainty around the same point on a 'glass boat not showing any obvious signs of deterioration (is the core really wet? is that osmosis really that bad? how big can that Catalina Smile really get?) is far harder for Joe Average to pick - meaning 'glass boats that may be still okay head for the wreckers sooner than perhaps they really need to. Particularly if there's an identical boat in better condition for sale just a few berths away..

I hope that clears things up for you...
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Last edited by Classic30; 07-04-2011 at 10:49 PM.
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  #13  
Old 07-05-2011
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Ok, we specialise in the restoration of wooden boats. You folks have seen some of our work up here. We are, however, in the midst of restoring a 1982 Hunter 54 on a budget. Can it be done? Yes. Is it worth it? I cannot tell you that. Considering this was a seizure boat bought on the cheap in a package and that the resto is going to run about 20K or so, what's a fresh H-54 worth? By the way, these boats are built much better than folks give them credit for. I can attest to this having dug so far into one. Good thickness on the decks, tabbed in bulkheads, tough grid system in the hull and a virtually indestructable chainplate cage system. I would sail one anywhere...
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  #14  
Old 07-05-2011
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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
But now that they are being made from fiberglass (or at least plastic composites)???

Maybe new engines, upholstery and paint???
Nah, you have to worry about landing cycles, metal fatigue etc, when they get that old.
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Old 08-14-2011
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Charlie,
What bothers me most about fiberglass boats is how many die prematurely simply because of poor design in a few key areas. Chainplates that penetrate the deck and leak for instance. How many derelicts would still be sailing if not for that problem? Another problem area is that a lot of sailboat designers don't seem to understand that decks on a sailboat are compression loaded from the sides and the ends. The shapes we see don't stand up well to compression loads, and lightweight coring materials make the problem much worse. So the decks crack everywhere and again water gets in. Deck compression under the mast. What a bunch of crap that is. You mean to say no one knows with absolute certainty what the mast loads could be? Keels that fall off, ripping a big hole in the hull, I'm working on my second bad one. No one can calculate the loads on a keel? Maybe manufacturers want them to fail so the new boat market keeps going strong.

Gary H. Lucas
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Old 08-14-2011
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Gary,

Interesting subject - worthy of more than just a thread here. Wasn't the J/80 that had a couple of boats with keels that tore out a big chunk of the hull ?

My impression is that boats which fail prematurely fall into 3 distinct groupings
1) high performance racers
2) floating condominium production cruisers built to a price point
3) very inexpensive entry level cruisers
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  #17  
Old 08-15-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDSchock View Post
Gary,

Interesting subject - worthy of more than just a thread here. Wasn't the J/80 that had a couple of boats with keels that tore out a big chunk of the hull ?

My impression is that boats which fail prematurely fall into 3 distinct groupings
1) high performance racers
2) floating condominium production cruisers built to a price point
3) very inexpensive entry level cruisers
There was a fleet of charter racer Bavarias, about 40' IIRC, in the Adriatic that had that happen a few years back - the pictures at the time showed incredibly mickey mouse keel fastenings - just little square plates, no bigger than washers against the hull which looked about 3/16" thick, if that. Unbelievable, especially for a respected German builder.
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  #18  
Old 08-15-2011
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Spend some time on European or UK forums - Bavaria isn't that respected. They are treated like they are a German Hunter.
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Spend some time on European or UK forums - Bavaria isn't that respected. They are treated like they are a German Hunter.
Yeah, you're right, it was a poor choice of words, I should have said Big Time builder or something like that. Although the Europeans do talk trash about production boats even worse than we do. Anything much less than a Moody seems to be regarded as basically cheap junk over there, except they seem to have more respect for Beneteaus than over here, at least they don't trash talk them as much. I liked one expression they use in England - Bayliners are called Bin Liners (garbage bags).

Having said that, I've never heard of a FLEET of Hunters having their bottoms torn out by the keels coming off.

This whole keel falling off thing seems to have become damn near commonplace as boats have gotten more high tech. I never heard of it happening before Drum (Simon LeBon's maxi) had the lead slide off the bolts in the channel. Apparently the bolts had been cast in with nothing on the bottom and no J bends and the whole mass of lead just slid off. That was mid 80's IIIRC but over the last decade or so it seems to have become an almost regular occurrence - Engineering anybody?
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Old 09-05-2011
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I've never hesitate to buy a boat in need of serious work. Main consideration for me is if I like the boat and it will meet my needs.

The main reason it works for me is primarily because I can take the boat home, and once it's home it doesn't cost me anything to have it sit there.

If you have to pay storage and yard fees etc, then that increases the cost and reduces the 'value' of the project.

The main consideration is that you LIKE the boat. It's like cars, if you really like a car you can sit back and say: " well, lets see, new engine,trans,, doors, windshield, hood and fenders, bumpers, tires, maybe new axle and it will be as good as new" If you don't like it, you'll say: "%$#@$% busted a fan belt again???!!! that does it, this POS is going to be traded in/sent to the scrap yard."

An example of someone loving a boat is here:

The sad demise of Ensign 796
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