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  #101  
Old 04-21-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob and Bill Atkin sittng on a park bench overlooking the marina:

Bob, "It's a headstay Bill. Can't you understand that?"
Bill, "I have always called it a forestay and I'm sticking with forestay."
Bob, "But today we only have one stay forward in most cases and it's the headstay."
Bill,"Yeah, I can see that but I know the way it was always defined and I'm going with that. You can't mess with definitions."

Several momets of silence as both men puff on their pipes and stare off.
Bob relights his pipe.

Bob, "Hey Bill,"
Bill, "What Bob."

Bob "Do you know Frank and Duffy down at the boat yard?"
Bill, "Yes I know those two men well. Stout chaps they are. Fine boatbuilders."
Bob, "I heard they were getting married."
Bill, "Well,,,,I know they shared their planes and chisells but............"

Silence........................................... ...........................
Bill, "How can two men get married?"
Bob, "Seems like it's some whacky new law Bill."
Bill, "I thought marriage was between a man and a woman."
Bob, "Me too Bill. I'm kind of confused. But they changed the definition."
Bill, "Well I'll be darned. That is hard to believe. A man and a man?"
Bob, "Yep it seems like definitions of words like "marriage" and "headstay" can just be switched around at whim."

Bill, "Damn! I mjust be getting old."
Bob, "I think a dram of single malt is what we need now Bill."
Bill, "I agree Bob. Maybe two or three drams."

They walk on down the path to the tavern leaving a trail of pipe smoke.
Bob, " Hey Bill! You know I had this crazy dream the other night. I dreamed they took your ERIC design and built it out of moulded plastic. Darndest thing. They built hundreds of them."
Bill, "You gotta quit smoking that hemp Bob."

Bob, "I had another dream Bill. I dreamed there was a time when you couldn't smoke your pipe in the tavern."

Bill, "Now you're being silly Bob. You've been hanging around Bill Garden too long."
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Last edited by bobperry; 04-21-2013 at 09:53 PM.
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  #102  
Old 04-21-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Did you know I have a Portuguese dog? Her name is RUBY and she is my very best friend.
She is extremely smart and very naughty. It's hard to be depressed with Ruby around. We went fishing together this morning. We fish almost every morning.
No I didn't know.... then it is you and Obama

Dogs have been men's best friends for thousands of years and have been breed do perform many functions and Portuguese has a culture had done their share in that regard. He have a small country but have "designed" several races. I have one of them, used not only to take care of sheep but also to protect them, meaning to fight successfully with wolfs. He is not only a friend but takes care of the house (very effectively) in the months I am out sailing.

The waterdog was one of the best. The first reference to one goes back to 1297 and it regards the rescue of a man that was drowning. They were used till recently as workers and a Portuguese XIX century writer that wrote about fishermen around all Portuguese coast says that at that time on the Algarve in Olhăo an offshore fishing boat had a crew of 25 men and two water dogs and that the dogs earned the same salary of a man. That shows how good and useful they were performing their work and the respect they deserved from the fishermen.

Probably you would like to run this on a translater :


It has a lot more interesting information than the English wikipedia page.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Bob and Bill Atkin sittng on a park bench overlooking the marina:
FWIW... I'd agree with everything Bill said. I must be gettin' old.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Paulo:
My Portuguese Water Dog is a Republican. Big difference. My dog thinks for herself.
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  #105  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Wolf,

Thank you for the explanation of how you are using the terms. What is interesting is the way that you quote using Atkins using the terms. On a gaff rigged boat, with a fidded topmast, the headstay would be the stay that went to the top of mast, and would be roughly in the position of your forestay (as Bob and I are using the term). A topmast stay would be the removable stay which went to the top of a fidded topmast. His use of the terms Headstay and Topmast stay suggest that he also had a gaff rig in mind.

The term 'knockabout' was not a rig per se. The term referred to a boat without a bowsprit no matter what its rig. In other words, there were knockabout sloops and ketches and schooners.

In that era, adding a second jib would not make your boat a cutter. By definition, depending on the specific era, minimally the position of the mast aft of the stem made a rig a cutter. Under the older definitions, a sloop could have multiple headsails. In fact in Atkins day there could not be a 'knockabout cutter' because the very definition of a cutter included a 'housing bowsprit' (a bowsprit which could be retracted). As the definitions of sloop and cutter evolved, a cutter could include designs which have no bowsprit, but have the mast further aft, in which case they were called, "Jib headed cutters".

In the case of your boat, at the time your boat was designed, both rigs would have been called knockabout sloops. Of course in modern usage, on the upper sail plan would be called a sloop today.....

Jeff
The location of the mast on a cutter is at least 33% of the length of the boat (it is 47% on mine). I know of a version of my boat rigged as a cutter, but the wish to do so was completely that of the builder. The same hull rigged as a cutter w/bowsprit looks "quaint" but performance sucks (It could be made much better with main having higher peak and topsail). I don't think this boat was originally designed to have a topmast. When you start to talk about old terms for rigs of boats you have to deal with different variations for the same name and different names for the same thing, to top it off you are using "forgotten terms" or terms that have been applied for something completely different.
To set things straight original headsail arrangement of my boat called for a self tending reefable working jib on a jib boom w/tack at the stem flown on a stay that goes 2/3 the way up the mast referred to as the "headstay.
To eliminate the complexity of jumper struts Atkin used a single stay from masthead to stem which he referred to as the "topmast stay" from which a small jib topsail or flying jib could be flown. "It will be observed that only two shrouds each side adorn the design; one headstay and one topmast stay. Also, Shipmates, the absence of spreaders, jumper struts, tangs, and permanent backstays. There are, however, runners"
The second owner cut down the oversized boom, added a fixed backstay, cap shrouds (shrouds to top of mast) w/spreaders and made the aforementioned headstay detachable to allow a larger jib to be flown off the mast head. This made for a much better balanced sail plan.

As far as what bilge keels would do in the PWN, they would be about as useful as bildge keels in England. Yes we have deep water, but we also have a large tidal drop (about 9' between mean low and mean high here at PT, not including extremes).

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-22-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
.......
To set things straight original headsail arrangement of my boat called for a self tending reefable working jib on a jib boom w/tack at the stem flown on a stay that goes 2/3 the way up the mast referred to as the "headstay.
To eliminate the complexity of jumper struts Atkin used a single stay from masthead to stem which he referred to as the "topmast stay" from which a small jib topsail or flying jib could be flown. "It will be observed that only two shrouds each side adorn the design; one headstay and one topmast stay. Also, Shipmates, the absence of spreaders, jumper struts, tangs, and permanent backstays. There are, however, runners"
The second owner cut down the oversized boom, added a fixed backstay, cap shrouds (shrouds to top of mast) w/spreaders and made the aforementioned headstay detachable to allow a larger jib to be flown off the mast head. This made for a much better balanced sail plan.
An interesting design progression. The original sail plan for my boat also called for a self tending reefable working jib on a jib boom w/tack at the stem which was very common on cruising yachts at the time - but mine ended up fractional-rigged with jumpers...

Whereas your boat is basically, now, a "masthead sloop".
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Last edited by Classic30; 04-22-2013 at 07:34 PM.
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  #107  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Actually most of the time I sail the boat as a fractional with either the working jib or the Genny (either regular cut 110% of mid sized Yankee of same sail area fit on headstay). The only time I sail as a masthead sloop is with the 180% roller furler, it doesn't point very well and sailing close to the wind gives a nasty weather helm, it works at a beam reach to downwind in light air sail. As soon as I finish installing new winches and pad eye at mooring bit (allowing me to attach headstay close to parallel with topmast stay) I will be able to sail as cutter and/or fly my big yankee on the topmast stay

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-23-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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  #108  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
The location of the mast on a cutter is at least 33% of the length of the boat (it is 47% on mine).
Wolf,

For what is worth, the traditional definition of a cutter had its mast aft of approximately 50% of the LOD (alternately described as 50% aft of the horizontal dimension of the sail plan). Measuring Atkin's drawings, your mast is approximately 36 percent aft of the length on deck and as the design was originally drawn with the boom over the transom and running backstays still less than that (roughly 34%) if the measurement is of the sail plan. Even as modified with the boom cut down, the mast is still well less than 40% of the sail plan aft.

In other words, the original design was is solidly in sloop territory. Which is not big deal since sloops usually sail better any way.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 04-23-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Wolf,

For what is worth, the traditional definition of a cutter had its mast aft of approximately 50% of the LOD (alternately described as 50% aft of the horizontal dimension of the sail plan). Measuring Atkin's drawings, your mast is approximately 36 percent aft of the length on deck and as the design was originally drawn with the boom over the transom and running backstays still less than that (roughly 34%) if the measurement is of the sail plan. Even as modified with the boom cut down, the mast is still well less than 40% of the sail plan aft.

In other words, the original design was is solidly in sloop territory. Which is not big deal since sloops usually sail better any way.

Jeff
The most common screwup on cutters is moving her mast aft, which gives her a huge weather helm, turning the rudder into a drogue. Whether converting a ketch, yawl or sloop into a cutter, leave the mast where it is.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
There is some confusion here: twin keels are used in many types of boats, narrow and beamy, light and heavy and the use of a twin keel has nothing to do with the use of twin rudders. Marc Lombard in most of his designs with twin keels uses a single rudder (and two rudders for a single deep keel).

Regarding the advantages, two articles very interesting mainly this one:

http://www.wrightonyachts.com/wp-con...ftwinkeels.pdf

even if I find he exaggerates in what regards pure performance. Twin keels are about a better motion comfort and a better performance with a shallow draft, specially upwind and they are not used only or even particularly suited for very beamy boats.

Bray Yacht Design and Research Ltd. - The Advantages of Twin Keels

Some very different boats using twin keels, some better designed than others but adapted to all kind of cruising boats. Most of them are not beamy boats. and very few share the concept of the RM boats (Lombard) in what regards type of hull.




































You are confusing me with someone else. I never said such thing.

What I said about drag regards direct comparisons of the same boat equipped with the two keels, having the twin keel a swallow draft. The single keel has less drag and the boat is marginally faster. The difference is so small and the advantages regarding cruising are so many that RM while building a boat with a mono Keel if a client if wishes so, recommends twin keels and in fact most of their the boats are built in twin keel configuration.

Regards

Paulo
Most of these twin keelers would be a nightmare to cruise in. An anchor rode wrapped around the trailing edges of these keels would be impossible to unfoul, especially on a lee shore in the night. I originaly had that problem until I made some modifications. With such a tiny attachement to the hull, getting it structurally adequate would be almost impossible. A hull speed imact on one would drive the trailing edge of it up into the hull.
An angle of 15 degrees only helps a lot at angles less than 15 degrees. A 25 degree angle gives you much more leeway reduction, and reduces the interaction between the two keels, of water being forced between them.
Any keel breaking the surface is extremely noisy; slams and pounds, and as soon as it starts to break the surface, it's drag increases drastically. Excessive beam drastically reduces ones untlimate stability. Boats capsizing and staying capsized was never a problem, until beam was drastically increased.
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