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  #1091  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Personally I'd go with a v50. It was on our final short list.i believe Texas sorted out all of the small details that make a boat easy to live longterm with in the last decade of the production run. Sometimes we forget its not only the overall design but also the execution that matters. Small boat for its size but perfect for two. Once the layup was sorted out great boat. Still,in the current era of slip or dinghy living double enders present some issues beyond speed down wind and loss of lazerette volume.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Really, Out. Can yo explain a bit more why double enders have a "speed downwind"
problem? That's a new one on me.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob,

I'm reading altho not typed well, that double enders lose speed down wind and loose interior space vs a typical transom style boat. But being as I have been wrong before, will be wrong again.......that is how I read outs reason behind the boat he is choosing.

Marty
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Really, Out. Can yo explain a bit more why double enders have a "speed downwind" problem? That's a new one on me.
Bob,

My take on that is Outbound's point is entirely consistent with the current ruling by the Court of Public Opinion.

My sense is that this majority opinion is based on the performance of many double-enders (by other designers whose names will go unmentioned) , which are more prone to squatting as the boat approaches hull speed than a fuller sterned transom boat might be, making it harder to achieve a semi-displacement mode on those particular double-enders.

The reality that you well know, but the members of the jury in Court of Public Opinionare less likely to be aware of, is that it is possible to design a double ender stern that is not any more prone to squatting than a transom sterned boat, but that comes at the price of slightly more wave making at slower speeds somewhat negating the widely circulated theories by a certain late designer/lecturer, whose initials cooincided with the traditional marine abbreviation for a toilet, about why a double ender might possibly be a little safer in a following, almost breaking sea.

Jus' Saying.....

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I don't know much about double enders but I have sailed one or two. Seems to me that you guys are mired in the theoretical. There are kernels of truth there but reality would provide some exceptions and once again prove that making broad generalizations about any type is often an error.

For the sake of argument can we agree that we are talking about boats with D/L's between 200 and 300? Fine. Within this range you will find boats Happy to sail to Hull speed and seldom faster, although we could argue about the "soft wall" that hull speed
represents. That soft wall is determined in the main by DWL and Cp with a given S/L.

It will be the same number for a transom sterned boat as a DE providing the rest of each boats proportions are similar. So where is the transom sterned boat superior off the wind?

Obviously if you have a DE with a really fine and pointy fanny you will have a clearly defined DWL. But if you have a DE like the V40 with the buttocks flattened, beam extended aft and LOA extent dropped down well below the sheer to further flatten the buttocks you have a very different animal compared to a boat like a Westsail 32. In fact it has been my experience that the V40 is very fast off the wind for a boat of it's numbers. It loves to be pushed hard off the wind and I have personally done well racing the V40 when there was long downwind legs.

Where I think you are correct is when you lower our range of D/L's down below 150 and you start getting into shapes that will readily surf. Not just the occasional shush down a wave, a V40 does that quite nicely but the ability to maintain a semi planing state. In that case a wide stern is certainly going to help.

But that's not what most of us think of as a "cruising boat". So, while I understand the theory behind your claim and your theory is correct, I don't think there is solid evidence to prove DE's are slower off the wind, providing we avoid the extremes of both types.

The great difficulty in this argument is trying to restrict ourselves to apples and apples.

Now I am going to go fishing.
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Last edited by bobperry; 07-12-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Close.. it's an Uffa Fox design (remember him?), tweaked by the original owner for local conditions.

With Australia having no notable ("big name") naval architects pre-WWII, people looked elsewhere - Fife, one or two Kiwis and then Laurent Giles were favorites. Uffa Fox's books on racing yacht design were also very popular out here and quite a number of people built boats to his lines straight out of the books.. Seriously.
I know Uffa Fox's work very well and in fact I am deeply indebted to him for one of my favorite boat design projects of all time. I apologize that this is a bit of a longish story but hopefully it an interesting one to others besides myself....

When I worked for yacht designer Charlie Wittholz in the early 1980’s, my favorite project that I worked on was a 26-28 foot canoe yawl, which was offered either as a ketch or a fractionally rigged sloop rig, but that contradiction is another story for another day and besides anyone living in a commonwealth would probably understand that apparent contradiction. This particular design had a very interesting history involving Uffa Fox and the British Monarchy.

It began with an American temporarily living in England, who read one of Uffa’s articles. In it, was included a sketch of a small canoe yawl, and a glowing description of the boat. My recollection is that the boat in question was actually an Albert Strange design, but I could be wrong on that. In any event, the American contacted Uffa to see if he could purchase the rights to the design from Uffa so he could build one for himself.

Uffa explained that the sketch was not a design of his, but that Uffa could design a similar but improved version of that boat. There was some back and forth snail mails and Uffa was hired to design the boat. Apparently Uffa was not a man who whipped out designs in a timely manner, and the project languished on for a long while. After a time, the American was back home in the States and Uffa was still designing. There were some lovely preliminary sketches but not much else.

Around that same time, the royals decided that the very young Prince Charles appeared to be a little effeminate and so should have a ‘manly companion’ to help his development. Prince Phillip reached out to Lord Mountbatten for guidance on this. Mountbatten suggested that Uffa Fox would make a good ‘manly companion’ for the young Charles, and Uffa agreed to take on the position. With this new responsibility, Uffa resigned the commission to design the canoe yawl.

The American was living near Washington DC, which was also near where Charlie Wittholz resided and worked, and so approached Charlie with the commission. Charlie began the project but shortly after the American became ill and died.

The drawings languished for a decade and then there was an inquiry from someone who had heard about the project. Charlie once again began the project. That person shopped it around to boat builders in Maine, and my recollection is that it proved too expensive to custom build the boat and again the project stopped, now nearly 2 decades after it started.

Apparently someone at WoodenBoat magazine had seen the design when they worked in one of the yards that priced the boat, and as a side note in a conversation about one of Charlie’s catboats, asked ‘What ever happened to that canoe yawl?’ After a brief chat, the magazine offered to publish a review of that design if Charlie was interested. That conversation happened in the early 1980’s when I worked for Charlie.

Charlie dusted off the old drawings, which by that time were pretty dated. So we started almost from scratch, with me drafting a set of presentation oriented new hull lines (now with a fin and skeg hung rudder), new rig (now with a fractional sloop rig and tapered aluminum spars), and a new interior (only minor tweaks on a very workable but very simple layout).

My drawings for that design were published in issue 56:130 of WoodenBoat Magazine, something that I have always been proud of. I have no idea if any were ever built, but I have always been indebted to to Uffa’s procrastination and sense of duty to the monarchy in allowing the circumstance to work on that project.

The stern on Uffa's version of this canoe yawl was similar to that on the 30 square meter.

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Done fishing. One beautiful Steelhead. Sent him on his way.

I like a good argument on yacht design so to keep this one going I'll take the other side and once again thumb my nose at the court of public opinion. If paid attention to that group the V40 would have had a full keel and I'd be a butcher today.

Look at today's fleet of wide transom boats. This general type sailing of the wind and approaching hull speed will in most cases begin to drag it's transom. The Passport 40 does. The Nordic 40 does and I'm pretty sure the Norseman 447 will too. But the same proportions on a double ender gives us a boat that can't drag it's transom. It has no transom. So the DE has the advantage in those conditions of adding the drag that comes from sucking the water around the edge of the immersed transom. The run of the DE will be clean.

When the V40 was new we regularly raced an early model MOTHER NATURE. It was a very well equipped boat but short on all the "necessities'" o what people think you need t go cruising, i.e. it was a relatively light V40. We raced PHRF against a varied fleet of 40+'ers including Cal 40's and IOR two tonner sized boats, all with transoms. Upwind against those boats was a challenge due to several things and probably the biggest thing being the broad flare to the V40's bow. It was not happy being punched into a steep chop upwind. But of the wind we sailed boat for boat and often faster than some of those other boats. My friend John's new Standfast 40 was easy to beat off the wind. And in a breeze we could give a Cal 40 fits. Against a Luders 44 Navy yawl it wasn't even a contest. It was a horizon job. Against a couple of custom Ray Richards 40' alu boats it was almost embarrassing.

Maybe we should adjourn the court now so both sides can reassess their positions.

For the record, I am a huge Uffa Fox fan and I keep his book handy at all times. I was a kid in Australia when Uffa started sailing with the Prince. I remember it well. I did a pen and ink drawing of Uffa and the Prince sailing and I entered it in a newspaper contest. I called it "Sailing with the Priince". I did not win but my drawing did get published.
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Last edited by bobperry; 07-12-2013 at 10:32 AM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob,
I think that you and I are pretty much in agreement on the reality of the situation vs the perception that is out there.

Its always been clear to me that the Valiant 40 had a more powerful stern than most of the cruising and racing boats that were out there at the time, and a sail plan which was also on the large size for a cruising boat of that era.

And my sense is that in its day the V-40 were a real revelation speed wise. They are still fast for a boat of their general displacement. (To me, there is a lot to be said for the more simply equipped original versions of the Valiant 40-1 and 40-2, which I suspect were lighter boats than the more recent heavily dolled up, S.S. be-blinged versions.)

I also agree that unless the boat is below a L/D of 180 or so, its hard to talk about significant speed gains related to having a transom, and there its only about shifting the CB aft a little and having enough bearing aft to prevent squatting, which I respectfully suggest would make it hard to avoid in an awkwardly shaped double end, and which in my mind the use of a double end that broad would be more of a styling effort rather than a compelling pragmatic reason to have a double end.

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Right. I think if you wanted a boat that would regularily sail at or above hull speed a nice broad stern is the way to go. You don't see any DE TP52's.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Really appreciate the education. First,I love double enders. Owned one of yours Bob and one of another gentleman. Sorry for my misconception as I thought in general narrow boats go well to windward but not as well DDW. Thought relatively flat run aft and wide as possible was the ticket. Hence the current chined boats. Low wetted surface when heeled but flat run when running. Somehow the chined boats don't look right to me but I know that's stupid. Know my current boat squats a bit when we are over 8kts. But then settles in with no further squatting. Seems the same up to11kts(fastest we've gone so far). Thought you need to have more displacement ( boat in the water) to level off the downward force. Thought that was easier to achieve without having much overhang on square transom vessel. My bad.
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