Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 19 - SailNet Community
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post #181 of 1155 Old 04-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Marty:
Sounds like you are talking about my back yard. It's so deep in front of my house that my mooring ball is in 50' of water at a medium low tide. The last thing I need to a retractable keel.

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post #182 of 1155 Old 04-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob,

Probably 20 miles south as the Orca swim!!!!! There is a shoal just south of me in Edmonds. But it drops really quick from 20 or so feet to over 100 in a boat length or two!

NO reason to generally speaking have a shoal draft or CB around here! Now having a boat that is reasonably comfortable sailing/motoring in chop is something that is nice to have! I buried my bow on the way back from shilshoal a week ago motoring home and had 6" of water on deck a few times!

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post #183 of 1155 Old 04-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

As far as my draft, 5' (deepest at the rudder post) isn't shoal, but is shallow enough give me some extra options over a deep modern fin. In the Chesapeake I grew up sailing Pearson Tritons, 4' was shallow enough so if you ran onto a sandbar someone could jump over and push the boat off.

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post #184 of 1155 Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Considering how much people put into boats, not only financially but of themselves, it is surprising the amount of dissatisfaction in what they have, for a number of reasons [1] people only have what they could afford and will settle for it till they can do better, [2] a marketing industry and/or culture that leads people to believe they NEED what is beyond their grasp (there is always something better) [3] Just an overall not being able to be happy with what you've got. I am extremely happy with my boat, this thread is a spin-off of a question I posed to Bob asking how the keel/rudder configuration could be done differently on the hull I have. What has resulted has actually been an incredibly informative thread on hull design which is also starting in on rig design. I would like to find an accurate # for my angle of vanishing stability (the only calculators I have tried put it at between 165degrees and 183degrees) I can give more specs to anyone who can figure that.
165 to 183 degrees sounds about par for those older , deep, narrow boats.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #185 of 1155 Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ok you guys. Put on those pointy hats and go sit in the back of the class.
Pay attention! Spit out your gum! Sit up straight!

Your limit of positive stability CANNOT be more than 180 degrees. Think about it. It could possible be around 160 degrees, possibly. But it certainly cannot not be in excess of 180 degrees. It is impossible to maintain any positive stability beyond 180 degrees. Once you et to 183 degrees YOU HAVE TRULY CAPSIZED and you are on the way back up on the other side. That is not" self righting".

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post #186 of 1155 Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Gosh, "positive stability to over 170 degrees" that's impressive but I've never seen it one one of my conservative designs. Of course you have no righting moment at 180 degrees. That's what this is all about. Any upright boat right,side up or inverted has no stability. You have to heel one way or the other to get a RA. If the VCG and the CB are lined up there is no "arm" ( Righting Arm)And I don't do any stability calculations based "on a midship section" I use the whole boat. I do not use deck structure. The Queen's Birthday study showed that pilot houses did not help. Theoretically they should but they didn't Go figure. I have never used deck structure so in order to continue the apples to apples comparison of my designs I will not use deck structures. If there is foam in the mast do I use that too? No.

I am in total agreement with Brent about the weight of cruising gear. The typical cruiser does not want to saw the handle off his toothbrush to save weight. He wants tankage, spare parts, tools, watermakers, gen sets, copious amounts of ground tackle including lots of chain and a full sized guitar. This stuff takes volume if it is to be stowed and leave enough room for humans to live in the left over volume. This is not theory. To do this with any style and grace takes a boat with some displacement. No,,,it won't be a rocket and go planing off into the sunset. But you know what? Most cruisers don't have the skills or the eneregy to push a boat to planing speeds for days on end. They are comfortabvle and safe, SAFE, pushing the boat to hull speed and relaxing. Why design for a level of performance that is beyond your sailing ability or inclination to maintain. Better to design for good all round performance with a good safety factor for your structure and your stability while providing a comfortable ride and a comfortable home.

If you want to reach for the upper limits of performance you can decide for yourself what you want to leave behind. But when you arrive exhausted at the next destination and anchor next to a big, GUNBOAT catamaran you may have to rethink your idea of exactly what is fast. Because compared to that GUNBOAT the POGO is a PIGO. To go truly fast you need more than one hull. Now do we want to get into that argument?
No, pilothouses dont help if you have the standard outdated sliding hatches which wont keep the water out, and they quuickly fill with water. With the more modern totaly airtight one piece door, the type which I and the round the world racers use, all that buoyancy up high is a huge factor in ultimate stability, and any calculations which dont take that into account are inheritantly ,grossly inacurate. As any accountant will tell you, start doing the math, and get one factor wrong, and everything from that point on is wrong.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #187 of 1155 Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Ok you guys. Put on those pointy hats and go sit in the back of the class.
Pay attention! Spit out your gum! Sit up straight!

Your limit of positive stability CANNOT be more than 180 degrees. Think about it. It could possible be around 160 degrees, possibly. But it certainly cannot not be in excess of 180 degrees. It is impossible to maintain any positive stability beyond 180 degrees. Once you et to 183 degrees YOU HAVE TRULY CAPSIZED and you are on the way back up on the other side. That is not" self righting".
I was wondering about that. But then my Juicy Fruit started tasting really good and...isn't 183 really just 177?

Talk about circular logic.

PS - I just stuck my gum under Brent Swain's home-made desk. Heh-heh.
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post #188 of 1155 Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Smackers:
I think you have it spot on old chap. "Circular logic".

Brent:
"airtight one piece door" "Airtight"? Boy, you are smoking some weird stuff. Time to get real. Show me one "airtight, onepiece door" that works on a yacht. Then show me "airtight one piece " window frames and "airtight one piece" hatches.

You guys can be very easily entertained. Brent was buying into the 183 degrees of positive stability one moment and now he's lecturing us on stability. That's choice.
I'll wait for his explanation of 183 dgree positive stability.

We can be stupid here or we can all work together to understand the reality of what makes yachts work. I've been at it for a long time. I am pretty comfortable with my understanding of naval architecture. My track record speaks for itself.

183 degrees, that made my dogs laugh.
Your choice.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

183 degree's is good.....as you ARE on the way back up! it is GOOD to be at that degree of positive righting moment!...........ok, I am going to bed, had one too many corona's after delivering my boat to SYC for opening day festivities this weekend! oh yes, having a luau on board too! any one care to join us in hawaian clothing or equal. Bob and smacky would look good in a grass skirt with coconuts on them! might even be able to find a black rectangle to go across steves fugly face so we do not scare mr winston!

Marty
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post #190 of 1155 Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff, any updates on the drawings? I'm anxious to see the next development.

Vindö 50
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