Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree245Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 04-18-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,582
Thanks: 5
Thanked 95 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

So while we are waiting for Bob Perry to get back into town and he has a few minutes to look at this, and while I had a an hour to kill before yoga last night, I thought I would take a first stab at the 'A sleeper in Wolf's clothing' version. This would be the version where Wolf walked into a yacht design office and said, "I lost my boat in a hurricane and the insurance company is paying me to build a brand new boat from scratch. I really loved my old boat but would love to improve it a little...emphaisis on a little, without losing a thing I liked about my old boat." In other words, this is the "Mommy Jeans" version. It is also the version which requires the least time and skill to draw.

I figured we could employ comparatively modern wood building techniques, say epoxy saturated, glued, western red cedar, bead edge strip planking, with a couple diagonal WRC veneers and a perhaps a kevlar sheathing over a mahogany outer veneer for toughness. That should bring hull weight down a little, and improve strength and impact resistance a lot.

I don't have a lot of time this morning but here is how this stacks up....
Things which would not change perceptably:
-Carrying capacity
-Visual appearance above the waterline
-Draft
-Ability to run aground without damage (long keel root and foot)
-Tracking
-Same engine position and approximately the same center of buoyancy

Things which change a very small amount:
-Motion comfort (the boat should roll through a smaller angle at a slower speed therefore be more comfortable than this already seakindly boat)
-A little less displacement over all (maybe 500 lbs to a 1,000 lbs)

Things which should change noticably:
-More stability (center of the lead ballast is roughly 10-12 inches lower)
-Should be able to carry a considerably more sail area (good for light air) and have to reef later(good for heavier air)
-Less drag due to less wetted surface, smaller tip vortex, and less displacement (better fuel economy and better upwind and downwind speed through the water.)
-More efficient foils (better light air and upwind ability, lighter helm loads, less leeway)
-Better control backing and the ability to make tighter turns.

That is my first stab at this. I am sure Bob will be able to critique and improve this version a lot.

Jeff
Proposed new lines drawings:


Original design for comparison:
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies

Last edited by Jeff_H; 04-18-2013 at 10:02 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 04-18-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff, do you mean a bigger or smaller carrying capacity?

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 04-18-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,582
Thanks: 5
Thanked 95 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

The canoe body did not change appreciably, but the construction weight went down, and displacement went down accordingly, so the surplus carrying capacity should remain virtually the same.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 04-18-2013
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,749
Thanks: 69
Thanked 203 Times in 195 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff.. can you edit the above and add the original plans from the previous page for a direct comparison?
Jeff_H likes this.
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 04-18-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I would say that it can carry effectively a bigger load on the same waterline. To use Bob's words the foot print would be the same but the boat is lighter so you can turn that difference in weight to carrying capacity.

Not saying that is needed or that it would not be preferable to have a lighter and faster boat carrying the same load, but if weight carrying capacity is what matters (for much absurd as it is) then I think you can carry a bigger load on your version, assuming it is correctly stowed.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 04-18-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,582
Thanks: 5
Thanked 95 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ron,
Good suggestion, I added the original version to the post. Below are the two sets of lines drawings superimposed over each other. The purple lines are the original lines.



Paulo,
Although I have not run any calculations, the assumption is that both the weight of the boat and the volume of the keel deadwood are assumed to have been reduced by the same amount so the boat should sit on her original waterline. That means she should have pretty much the same carrying capacity. She may perform better loaded since she should have less drag, and should also get a new sail plan with more sail area.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies

Last edited by Jeff_H; 04-18-2013 at 10:27 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 04-18-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,715
Thanks: 1
Thanked 74 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff:
Yes, a .dwg file would work best for me thaanks.

The idea here, as I see it, is to imagine Wolfer has just won the lottery and he wants a new boat. But he loves the way his old boat looks. It does not have what I would call modern performance. It's an antique design. A lovely antique but still an antique. So my idea is to see how we would preserve the romantic, traditional look of Wolfy's boat and at the same time update the hull form and appendages.

The idea is not to make everyone happy. The idea is to make the Wolf, Jeff and me happy. The outcome will not be everyones idea of the "ideal boat" but if we do this right it just might be Wolfer's idea of the "idea boat". But we can all have fun watching the process.

Jeff:
Good to see you off to the races here.
On your proposed profile change I think you should try to slide the fin aft almost one whole station. I'd lose the long chord tip on the rudder too and add more span while retaining the partial skeg you show now.

Given that the Wolf most probably will not build this boat the prime target to this excersize is fun and stimulating conversations about boats.

I need a couple days. I have just returned from the PSC yard in NC and I have a raging head cold. I need some time with my dogs.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 04-18-2013 at 10:49 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 04-18-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Someone mentioned carrying capacity, the boat is rated at 10 tons net weight (carved in hull next to hull id #). As far as motion the boat is exceptionally sea kindly, quite pleasant in nasty seas. Atkin called for carvel plank the builder used strip plank with top nails screwed on to w/frames double frames that were beefy even for carvel plank which are bolted together and fiberglass on outside, it could have been built alot lighter.
A friend of mine who is all about modern rigs started to tell me how I could change mine...then pointed out the rig I have points well, is well balanced and powerful (I'd keep the rig, down to the cambered wood mast).
Below the waterline I would keep a transom hung rudder w/skeg to protect rudder and prop shaft (Atkin liked to have prop shafts almost horizontal). The skeg that far aft would help tracking. the modification I was thinking of was rudder separate from keel, but would not run the keel as far forward as suggested in the alternate drawings.
The rig was modified from the original design but has also since been made a cutter. Head stay is detachable to either have a 2/3 fractional or be detached at the bottom and shipped to allow a large jib to be flown off the masthead on the topmast stay or run parallel to as cutter, flying a jib off the masthead really only excels when you need to fly a large sail, it works best a cutter. Someone wanted to see the present sail plan (the second version shows where the stays are but is not the real cut of sails)
more drawings and pics including building can be found at SailNet Community - wolfenzee's Album: S/V Rover



Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-18-2013 at 12:37 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 04-18-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Forgot to mention the boat likes to heel, alot so a shallow rudder would not work.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 04-18-2013
hellosailor's Avatar
Plausible Deniability
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,657
Thanks: 2
Thanked 93 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Heeling stability was so poor that a change to a keel bulb instead of a foil was necessary? Or does a bulb somehow contribute to any other performance?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bob Perry's Tragic Loss smackdaddy General Discussion (sailing related) 16 07-09-2013 10:57 AM
What's your dream boat? dovetailnj General Discussion (sailing related) 58 07-08-2013 12:48 PM
What's your dream boat??? DavidB.UK General Discussion (sailing related) 4 06-22-2013 04:06 PM
Perry's new Sunday blog bobperry General Discussion (sailing related) 12 11-07-2011 06:05 PM
A boat dream! pjboots Boat Review and Purchase Forum 28 03-22-2007 03:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:29 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.