Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 23 - SailNet Community
 245Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #221 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,256
Thanks: 1
Thanked 101 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Thanks Smackers. I'll hang in there. The point was to have some fun and so far at least Jeff and I am having fun.

Wolf:
I agree with you 100%. I think Bill Atkin or almost any other designer would appreciate any design changes that improve the boat. Whe the first FT10m's were delivered some owners thought the rudder that I designed could be improved. I didn't. But I did not object to them trying different rudder designs. My goal was to see the FT10m perfected as much as possible and if that required a rudder designed by someone else then fine with me.

Sometimes I get a little confused as to what you are saying. But this came to mind last night.

When I was in high school I had a 1955 Oldsmobile. It was HUGE! It had a huge V-8 and it was very powerful and fast. Mechanicaly you coud not break that car. Nothing ever went wrong with it. I wish I had it back today. It was such a cool car.

But my Subaru Outback is a far better car. It handles much better. It has features not heard of when they built my Olds, independant rear suspension, disc brakes, radial tires, all wheel drive and far, far better gas mileage. So compared to the Olds the Subaru is a bit boring but there is no question that it is the superior car by today's standards. Could my Olds be tweaked and modified to make it perform better? Yes, to a degree. But it will never overcome the dissadvantage of the antiquated original design.

I'd love to drive it around again. So long as I had the Subaru also sitting in my driveway.
Attached Thumbnails
1954-1956-oldsmobile-1955-oldsmobile-98-holiday.jpg  

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 05-09-2013 at 09:39 AM.
bobperry is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #222 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
Senior Moment Member
 
SloopJonB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 11,465
Thanks: 59
Thanked 69 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
When I was in high school I had a 1955 Oldsmobile. It was HUGE! It had a huge V-8 and it was very powerful and fast. Mechanicaly you coud not break that car. Nothing ever went wrong with it. I wish I had it back today. It was such a cool car.

But my Subaru Outback is a far better car. It handles much better. It has features not heard of when they built my Olds, independant rear suspension, disc brakes, radial tires, all wheel drive and far, far better gas mileage. So compared to the Olds the Subaru is a bit boring but there is no question that it is the superior car by today's standards. Could my Olds be tweaked and modified to make it perform better? Yes, to a degree. But it will never overcome the dissadvantage of the antiquated original design.

I'd love to drive it around again. So long as I had the Subaru also sitting in my driveway.
That is why hot rodders are predominately grey hairs now. Back then almost anything you did to a car would improve it but now the cars are so close to perfect from the factory that changing anything costs somewhere else.

More power? Less reliability. More grip? worse ride quality.

They sure had a lot more style and personality back then though. I can still identify most pre-1970 cars from a taillight or a glimpse of a fender. Nowadays I have to read the badges and oftentimes even them I'm not certain.

You CAN get the best of both in a few cases though. My wife's Jag XJR has everything an old S-Type or Mark II had - same style (better I think), same comfort, better performance by far (they didn't supercharge the old ones), same Gentleman's Club feel inside etc. etc.

The XJR has never left me at the side of the road though and I'll comfortably take it cross country. My old Jag seldom got farther from the shop than I could push it.

That's why I like boats like Night Runner and what you & Jeff are doing with Wolf's boat - they are sort of like the XJR - all the old style & personality with modern performance.

When you come up with a huge gaff rigger that can do 500 mile days offshore.....

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.

Last edited by SloopJonB; 05-09-2013 at 01:16 PM.
SloopJonB is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #223 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,256
Thanks: 1
Thanked 101 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

JonB:
I'm past the age where I feel any identity from the car I drive. I had six Mercedes over the years. But I sold my SEL a year ago due to the gas mileage. A six litre V-8 and a 22 gallon fuel tank was not working at the gas pump. But it was one of the best cars I have ever owned.

You are right. Most of the new cars are boring and hard to tell apart.

But I do gave this secret desire for an older Jag. I'd like one like Morse drives but without the black vinyl top. But I know a car is not going to make me happy so for now I'll putt along in the Outback and admire the fancy cars as they go by happy at least that my Outback is paid for.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #224 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013 Thread Starter
Moderator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,908
Thanks: 5
Thanked 152 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Outbound: Here is the sail plan that goes with the hull. All of the vital statistics appear on the upper right corner. They never format right on when I cut and paste them but here there are.

LOA 32'- 2"
LWL 29'-10"
Beam 9'- 8"
Draft 5'-10"
Displacement 12,563 Lbs.
Ballast 5,775 Lbs.
Sail Area Main 399 S.F.
100% fore 255 S.F.
Total 654 S.F.

D/L 212
L/B 3.08
SA/D 19.36

Steve: Thank you for the suportive words.

Hellosailor: Good suggestion on a retractable bow roller. The idea of a retractible or removable roller has shown up on some of the European performance cruisers.

The trouble with that approach is that the anchor needs to be manhandled off the roller before the roller assmebly is retracted or removed. That is a real pain in the neck if you are using one of the newer anchor types which tend to be much heavier than anchors like the Danforths. My sense of the cruising Bias for this boat is such that the design needs to more utilitarian than would tollerate a removable roller. I keep playing with ideas but none float my boat....


[IMG] photo SailPlanPS-32R-7E5-7-13_zpsa2d390ea.jpg[/IMG]


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay
Jeff_H is online now  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #225 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,256
Thanks: 1
Thanked 101 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff:
You should reduce the size of the masthead crane. It's way too big. Use a 6" headboard on the mainsail.

The spreaders are too low. I'd go with double spreaders for sure. Have the lowest panel be the longest. Show a little kick up angle to the spreaders. Angle should bisect the stay angle or get close to it so you don't put a bending moment on the spreader.

Rig looks too tall for me. I'd like to see I, J, E and P on the drawing. Maybe drop P and I to get a SA/D of 18.2 max. It's nice to have power but this rig height looks out of proportion to me.

ARTEMIS just capsized on SF Bay!

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #226 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 2,335
Thanks: 55
Thanked 48 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Defer to the master ?but with that high aspect and a tunable backstay looks like she would go to weather like a son of a gun. ?Don't lose that. Maybe a 7/8th rig and double spreaders wouldn't destroy the aesethic.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #227 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
Senior Moment Member
 
SloopJonB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 11,465
Thanks: 59
Thanked 69 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Grampa Bob ain't a hot rodder - when it comes to horsepower if some is good, more is better and too much is just right.

Let it have the full 6 liters Bob.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
SloopJonB is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #228 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013 Thread Starter
Moderator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,908
Thanks: 5
Thanked 152 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Defer to the master ?but with that high aspect and a tunable backstay looks like she would go to weather like a son of a gun. ?Don't lose that. Maybe a 7/8th rig and double spreaders wouldn't destroy the aesethic.
I am not trying to speak for Bob on this, but for myself I have to admit that some of the design inspiration has been the four decades of mulling over how I would improve the 1949 Folkboat that I owned in the 1970's, and my last two boats that have had almost this identical rig.

This is strictly my opinon, but here goes, while double (or more)spreader rigs make sense on race boats, really big boats, and boats which are dependent on overlapping headsails, they do not make much sense on cruising boats. Double spreader rigs are much harder to tune and maintain, with more parts to fail. In my mind, cruising boats should be simple and reliable. The main advantage of a double spreader rig is allowing a narrower shroud base, and/or a smaller mast section. If the design is arranged so that the boat does not need to use larger overlapping (the shrouds) headsails, the spreaders can be wide enough to get plenty of mast support without double spreaders and the boat will be a better cruising boat.

Upwind performance should be okay, but this is actually a rig which should really reach very well as well. The boat would probably benefit from a masthead chute, but would be a lot easier to handle with a chute that had its halyard a couple feet above the jibstay, and that is probably how I would rig her. I would also have spectra running backstays that would only rig in extremely heavy conditions when reefed.

Bob may have other ideas on this which I would enjoy hearing.

Jeff


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay
Jeff_H is online now  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #229 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,590
Thanks: 20
Thanked 40 Times in 38 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Mastehead crane puts a huge bending load on the top of the mast.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Brent Swain is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #230 of 1155 Old 05-09-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,590
Thanks: 20
Thanked 40 Times in 38 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Brent:
I have used "water tight" doors before but I have never thought of them as "air tight". The water tight doors I have used have been a bit industrial looking and not suited to the look I want for a main companionway door. They are also a bit awkward in that application and hard to mate to a companionway sliding hatch. If you can build one that works for the companionway then good for you. I'm impressed. Can you post an example of one of your doors please. I'm not too old to learn something.

As for stability numbers: To many people here they are still confusing and I figure if they read "183 degrees" they might just believe it. Then we have some back educating to do to be sure people are not being misinformed and even more confused about stability figures.

In terms of the Australian roll over study and pilot house boats I would assume, correctly I hope, that in that study they did figure the PH volume was water tight at the least. I was not part of that study. I just read excerpts from the results.
Believing that the buoyancy in a wheelhose would have no effect on ultimate stability, is like believing that attaching a 2 ft diameter beach ball to the underside of a surfboard would have no effect on it's stability. I prefer logic, no numbers crunching required.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Brent Swain is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bob Perry's Tragic Loss smackdaddy General Discussion (sailing related) 16 07-09-2013 10:57 AM
What's your dream boat? dovetailnj General Discussion (sailing related) 58 07-08-2013 12:48 PM
What's your dream boat??? DavidB.UK General Discussion (sailing related) 4 06-22-2013 04:06 PM
Perry's new Sunday blog bobperry General Discussion (sailing related) 12 11-07-2011 06:05 PM
A boat dream! pjboots Boat Review and Purchase Forum 28 03-22-2007 03:10 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome