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  #221  
Old 05-09-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Thanks Smackers. I'll hang in there. The point was to have some fun and so far at least Jeff and I am having fun.

Wolf:
I agree with you 100%. I think Bill Atkin or almost any other designer would appreciate any design changes that improve the boat. Whe the first FT10m's were delivered some owners thought the rudder that I designed could be improved. I didn't. But I did not object to them trying different rudder designs. My goal was to see the FT10m perfected as much as possible and if that required a rudder designed by someone else then fine with me.

Sometimes I get a little confused as to what you are saying. But this came to mind last night.

When I was in high school I had a 1955 Oldsmobile. It was HUGE! It had a huge V-8 and it was very powerful and fast. Mechanicaly you coud not break that car. Nothing ever went wrong with it. I wish I had it back today. It was such a cool car.

But my Subaru Outback is a far better car. It handles much better. It has features not heard of when they built my Olds, independant rear suspension, disc brakes, radial tires, all wheel drive and far, far better gas mileage. So compared to the Olds the Subaru is a bit boring but there is no question that it is the superior car by today's standards. Could my Olds be tweaked and modified to make it perform better? Yes, to a degree. But it will never overcome the dissadvantage of the antiquated original design.

I'd love to drive it around again. So long as I had the Subaru also sitting in my driveway.
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-09-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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  #222  
Old 05-09-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
When I was in high school I had a 1955 Oldsmobile. It was HUGE! It had a huge V-8 and it was very powerful and fast. Mechanicaly you coud not break that car. Nothing ever went wrong with it. I wish I had it back today. It was such a cool car.

But my Subaru Outback is a far better car. It handles much better. It has features not heard of when they built my Olds, independant rear suspension, disc brakes, radial tires, all wheel drive and far, far better gas mileage. So compared to the Olds the Subaru is a bit boring but there is no question that it is the superior car by today's standards. Could my Olds be tweaked and modified to make it perform better? Yes, to a degree. But it will never overcome the dissadvantage of the antiquated original design.

I'd love to drive it around again. So long as I had the Subaru also sitting in my driveway.
That is why hot rodders are predominately grey hairs now. Back then almost anything you did to a car would improve it but now the cars are so close to perfect from the factory that changing anything costs somewhere else.

More power? Less reliability. More grip? worse ride quality.

They sure had a lot more style and personality back then though. I can still identify most pre-1970 cars from a taillight or a glimpse of a fender. Nowadays I have to read the badges and oftentimes even them I'm not certain.

You CAN get the best of both in a few cases though. My wife's Jag XJR has everything an old S-Type or Mark II had - same style (better I think), same comfort, better performance by far (they didn't supercharge the old ones), same Gentleman's Club feel inside etc. etc.

The XJR has never left me at the side of the road though and I'll comfortably take it cross country. My old Jag seldom got farther from the shop than I could push it.

That's why I like boats like Night Runner and what you & Jeff are doing with Wolf's boat - they are sort of like the XJR - all the old style & personality with modern performance.

When you come up with a huge gaff rigger that can do 500 mile days offshore.....
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  #223  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

JonB:
I'm past the age where I feel any identity from the car I drive. I had six Mercedes over the years. But I sold my SEL a year ago due to the gas mileage. A six litre V-8 and a 22 gallon fuel tank was not working at the gas pump. But it was one of the best cars I have ever owned.

You are right. Most of the new cars are boring and hard to tell apart.

But I do gave this secret desire for an older Jag. I'd like one like Morse drives but without the black vinyl top. But I know a car is not going to make me happy so for now I'll putt along in the Outback and admire the fancy cars as they go by happy at least that my Outback is paid for.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Outbound: Here is the sail plan that goes with the hull. All of the vital statistics appear on the upper right corner. They never format right on when I cut and paste them but here there are.

LOA 32'- 2"
LWL 29'-10"
Beam 9'- 8"
Draft 5'-10"
Displacement 12,563 Lbs.
Ballast 5,775 Lbs.
Sail Area Main 399 S.F.
100% fore 255 S.F.
Total 654 S.F.

D/L 212
L/B 3.08
SA/D 19.36

Steve: Thank you for the suportive words.

Hellosailor: Good suggestion on a retractable bow roller. The idea of a retractible or removable roller has shown up on some of the European performance cruisers.

The trouble with that approach is that the anchor needs to be manhandled off the roller before the roller assmebly is retracted or removed. That is a real pain in the neck if you are using one of the newer anchor types which tend to be much heavier than anchors like the Danforths. My sense of the cruising Bias for this boat is such that the design needs to more utilitarian than would tollerate a removable roller. I keep playing with ideas but none float my boat....


[IMG] photo SailPlanPS-32R-7E5-7-13_zpsa2d390ea.jpg[/IMG]
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  #225  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff:
You should reduce the size of the masthead crane. It's way too big. Use a 6" headboard on the mainsail.

The spreaders are too low. I'd go with double spreaders for sure. Have the lowest panel be the longest. Show a little kick up angle to the spreaders. Angle should bisect the stay angle or get close to it so you don't put a bending moment on the spreader.

Rig looks too tall for me. I'd like to see I, J, E and P on the drawing. Maybe drop P and I to get a SA/D of 18.2 max. It's nice to have power but this rig height looks out of proportion to me.

ARTEMIS just capsized on SF Bay!
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Defer to the master ?but with that high aspect and a tunable backstay looks like she would go to weather like a son of a gun. ?Don't lose that. Maybe a 7/8th rig and double spreaders wouldn't destroy the aesethic.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Grampa Bob ain't a hot rodder - when it comes to horsepower if some is good, more is better and too much is just right.

Let it have the full 6 liters Bob.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Defer to the master ?but with that high aspect and a tunable backstay looks like she would go to weather like a son of a gun. ?Don't lose that. Maybe a 7/8th rig and double spreaders wouldn't destroy the aesethic.
I am not trying to speak for Bob on this, but for myself I have to admit that some of the design inspiration has been the four decades of mulling over how I would improve the 1949 Folkboat that I owned in the 1970's, and my last two boats that have had almost this identical rig.

This is strictly my opinon, but here goes, while double (or more)spreader rigs make sense on race boats, really big boats, and boats which are dependent on overlapping headsails, they do not make much sense on cruising boats. Double spreader rigs are much harder to tune and maintain, with more parts to fail. In my mind, cruising boats should be simple and reliable. The main advantage of a double spreader rig is allowing a narrower shroud base, and/or a smaller mast section. If the design is arranged so that the boat does not need to use larger overlapping (the shrouds) headsails, the spreaders can be wide enough to get plenty of mast support without double spreaders and the boat will be a better cruising boat.

Upwind performance should be okay, but this is actually a rig which should really reach very well as well. The boat would probably benefit from a masthead chute, but would be a lot easier to handle with a chute that had its halyard a couple feet above the jibstay, and that is probably how I would rig her. I would also have spectra running backstays that would only rig in extremely heavy conditions when reefed.

Bob may have other ideas on this which I would enjoy hearing.

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Mastehead crane puts a huge bending load on the top of the mast.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Brent:
I have used "water tight" doors before but I have never thought of them as "air tight". The water tight doors I have used have been a bit industrial looking and not suited to the look I want for a main companionway door. They are also a bit awkward in that application and hard to mate to a companionway sliding hatch. If you can build one that works for the companionway then good for you. I'm impressed. Can you post an example of one of your doors please. I'm not too old to learn something.

As for stability numbers: To many people here they are still confusing and I figure if they read "183 degrees" they might just believe it. Then we have some back educating to do to be sure people are not being misinformed and even more confused about stability figures.

In terms of the Australian roll over study and pilot house boats I would assume, correctly I hope, that in that study they did figure the PH volume was water tight at the least. I was not part of that study. I just read excerpts from the results.
Believing that the buoyancy in a wheelhose would have no effect on ultimate stability, is like believing that attaching a 2 ft diameter beach ball to the underside of a surfboard would have no effect on it's stability. I prefer logic, no numbers crunching required.
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