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  #241  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Kill:
The rig as Jeff has it now drawn is way too tall for single spreaders. Just compare the proportions with your boat's rig. It would require a very stout mast section. I have asked Jeff to reduce the size of the rig. I have done many boats with single spreaders. The priginal V-40's all had single spreaders. Double spreaders are better and give a lot more controol over the mast. Also as drawn the head angle on the jib is way too narrow. This would make for a sail that is difficult to build and not very efficient.

I do not dictate to Jeff what to do. I suggest the changes that I think will benefit the boat and its up tpo Jeff to either implikent my suggestions or ignore them. He does fight for his ideas and I listen. The I fight for my ideas. But it is a team effort with me being the coach and Jeff being the quarterback.
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  #242  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Thanks for the comments Jeff and Bob. When the Bristol 47.7 came out a few years after the 45.5 it had double spreaders even though it is is the same boat with a different transom arrangement. Don't know if there were just second thoughts or what the interaction might have been between Hood and Dieter Empacher who both were involved with the design.

We met Steve and Meredith on Silas Crosby in the Galapagos and at Easter Island before we headed west to Pitcairn and French Polynesia and they went SE to Chile. It certainly seemed to be a terrific boat for going to the really challenging parts of the oceans, ie far south and far north.
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  #243  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Thanks for the link jak.



Nice looking boat.

But see that's just it - I've seen Brent unnecessarily hammered on other forums for the way he works. And I honestly think that's pretty chumpy. I personally like the way he works and see value in it. It's extremely inventive. And I know full well that there is a market of people out there that love his boats and applications very much.

On the other hand, it's when he continuously claims that his designs/applications are superior to conventional marine designs/applications that the bar is raised...especially in the context of a design discussion such as this. He needs to show how this is true - just as any other designer must do. Otherwise it's just talk. That's why it's easy for people to jump on him.

So, I have no intention of hammering Brent (although I might not agree with him). But I would very much like to have him illustrate and discuss his ideas (especially in a thread like this where very knowledgeable designers are holding forth) so I can decide for myself if he's "right" or not. That's just me.
I find Brent's Origami process fascinating and would really like to watch one of the hulls being folded into shape. Many of his points such as welding chainplates, cleats & stanchions down make a lot of sense. One of his boats would certainly seem to be a good choice for serious voyaging - the security of steel can't be denied. I'd also be interested in some info on the weight of his boats - that frameless monocoque construction has to save a bunch of weight.

Having said that, I DO wish he'd dial back the utilitarianism a notch or two and increase the "yacht" factor by a corresponding amount.
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  #244  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

When something was designed does not determine if it is good or bad.
Where I live there are people who feel any thing that is old is good if you through enough varnish on it and it fits their interpretation of being historically accurate. These boats perform best in a slip at a boat show, the owners are what I call "wooden boat snobs".
That said there is the other end of the spectrum where "armchair racer/yacht designers" who being feed information from the boating industry lust after "modern boats" who fall short of the true modern thoroughbreds that are the roots of these designs.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-10-2013 at 09:40 PM.
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  #245  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Kill:
The rig as Jeff has it now drawn is way too tall for single spreaders. Just compare the proportions with your boat's rig. It would require a very stout mast section. I have asked Jeff to reduce the size of the rig. I have done many boats with single spreaders. The priginal V-40's all had single spreaders. Double spreaders are better and give a lot more control over the mast. Also as drawn the head angle on the jib is way too narrow. This would make for a sail that is difficult to build and not very efficient.

I do not dictate to Jeff what to do. I suggest the changes that I think will benefit the boat and its up tpo Jeff to either implikent my suggestions or ignore them. He does fight for his ideas and I listen. The I fight for my ideas. But it is a team effort with me being the coach and Jeff being the quarterback.
I must say that it has been a real honor working on this with Bob. It has been quite humbling. There has been a steep learning and relearning process. It has been many years since I worked in a yacht design office or built a boat. That office did very conservative designs and I had not tried to draw a modern design. I also have not tried to draw a boat using computer drafting programs. Collectively, this has reminded me how much I enjoy drawing boats, and noodling through the difficulties of drafting a fair, complex curved, object and still end up with the shapes you want to achieve where you want to achieve them. It has reminded me of the time and care, and discipline involved to end up with an attractive object that also sails well.

The whole computer drafting thing has been its own challenge. Olin Stephens was once asked if the towing tank took the creativity out of being a yacht designer. He reportedly replied that the creativity was still there in knowing what shape hull to put in the tank. This is very much like drafting on the computer. I also miss being able to lay my head on the drafting board to eyeball whether a line is fair.

I started this process with a sense of where I wanted to take this design in much the same way that a quarterback has a plan for where he wants the football to end up, namely the end zone.

To continue Bob's metaphor, what has happened behind the scenes is that I will pass the ball in a direction I would like it to go. Bob will make suggestions about how to get there, or reminding me when I am facing the wrong direction. Mostly Bob's suggestions are obviously right, but we have also kicked around ideas where we did not start out in the same place or facing the same direction. The dialogue has been instructive and thought provoking.

Bob has been very charitable with his time and patience. He never started an email, "Jeff you ignorant slut!".

This rig design is an example of something that I have known instinctively for a long time, namely that it is very hard to have enough stability to carry enough sail to perform well in light to moderate air on a boat which is proportionately heavy for its length. But it was only when I began to draft a big enough rig to provide the required drive, that it became apparent that within the limits of the length on deck, you could not get enough sail area without making a rig so tall that you could not have the stability to carry that sail plan. It was only after I had drawn it and Bob had a chance to comment on it, that this issue became more clearly illustrated in a way that had not occurred to me before.

Work progresses, and there will be more to come.

Thank you Bob,
And thanks to all who are following this thread.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 05-11-2013 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Spelling and misleading syntax
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  #246  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

It's been fun Jeff.
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  #247  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob,

Thank you for saying that. I have really enjoyed this as well...

Jeff
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  #248  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Us spectators (even us boatless spectators) have enjoyed this process too! It's great to see what goes into designing a sailing vessel.
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  #249  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Agreed. ...and I post this more as a prompt for Jeff/Bob given we haven't seen a deck plan yet:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
This rig design is an example of something that I have known instinctively for a long time, namely that it is very hard to have enough stability to carry enough sail to perform well in light to moderate air on a boat which is proportionately heavy for its length. But it was only when I began to draft a big enough rig to provide the required drive, that it became apparent that within the limits of the length on deck, you could not get enough sail area without making a rig so tall that you could not have the stability to carry that sail plan. It was only after I had drawn it and Bob had a chance to comment on it, that this issue became more clearly illustrated in a way that had not occurred to me before.
Rig design is a compromise in many areas - not just stability. From a previous post: LOA = 32'-2", Beam 9'-8". Given that it's a relatively beamy boat for it's length, once the rig size and configuration has been determined, spreader location and angle on the mast and chainplate/shroud location on deck has a big impact on the headsail(s) shape and angle of attack, hence ultimate tacking angle and also drive.

Just sayin'..
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Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
He never started an email, "Jeff you ignorant slut!".
He obviously doesn't know the long and storied tradition around here. ALL missives to Jeff start this way.
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