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  #271  
Old 05-14-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Desert Rat:
I won't shoot you. Jeff is just finishing up the sail plan now. He got side tracked while he designed an interior. He has a few small details to work on but it's pretty much done and looking good. We did not use a bowsprit as we tried to stay with the basic aesthetic of Wolfer's boat.
You might have kept parts of the side view close to the original esthetics, but by increasing the beam by 24% you screwed up other parts of its esthetics and handling characteristics. Granted according to one persons calculations it might take less time to right from a knockdown, but how often is a boat knocked down...there are many other more important considerations. The wider beam would have more space below for accommodations, but then the cabin could have been done differently with the existing hull, if accommodations had had a higher priority).
The original rig from 75 years ago had issues, the updated rig, keeping the flexy cambered mast, with better balanced fore triangle (and yes the spreaders do sweep back a bit) is actually very efficient and powerful on all points of sail.
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  #272  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
You might have kept parts of the side view close to the original esthetics, but by increasing the beam by 24% you screwed up other parts of its esthetics and handling characteristics.
Assuming that you are talking about the 'limited production offshore cruiser version" and not the much bigger boat that I designed with my personal preferences in mind, just to set the record straight, measuring off of the original and new drawings, the new design is less than 1% beamier than your boat. Because of the hull shape and lower vertical center of gravity, the new boat should have significantly greater stability at all heel angles. If being being only .94% wider, but more stable and having a slower roll and pitch rate through a smaller roll and pitch angle "screwed up other parts of its esthetics and handling characteristics." then you have chosen a position that most would find uniquely your own.

Jeff
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  #273  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I like it Jeff. Heck, I even like the dodger.
If I were to suggest changes I would start with moving beam max in plan forward one station. This would make the bow slightly fuller but that's OK. You get more deck forward and that's good. I like the bow profile but I'm not sure you can retain the almost straight waterlines you want above the DWL with that profile. That strong, spoon shape implies more fullness to the waterlines. I'll let you wrestle with that. As now drawn that bow profile sets the tone of the design. Kind of a "What the heck is that?" I like that.

I have a vast collection of music. Sometimes I find a piece that says "variation on a theme by,,,,,,," I listen closely and I can't even hear the original theme. I think Jeff may have done this with Wolfy's boat. But I do like this variation.

I'd like it even better if it had double spreaders.
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  #274  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Assuming that you are talking about the 'limited production offshore cruiser version" and not the much bigger boat that I designed with my personal preferences in mind, just to set the record straight, measuring off of the original and new drawings, the new design is less than 1% beamier than your boat. Because of the hull shape and lower vertical center of gravity, the new boat should have significantly greater stability at all heel angles. If being being only .94% wider, but more stable and having a slower roll and pitch rate through a smaller roll and pitch angle "screwed up other parts of its esthetics and handling characteristics." then you have chosen a position that most would find uniquely your own.

Jeff
I was referring to the 10.5' beam compared to my 8.75' beam (a 20% increase). The original question posed to Bob was about a different keel configuration on the same hull while keeping the good tracking and performance characteristics of my present boat. So many changes that have been made and/or proposed that less and less of the original boat now exists both esthetically and in handling characteristics. What you have come up with and how they might differ from each other are just theoretical on your part not knowing anything of the actual boat my boat or what you have come up with on paper.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-15-2013 at 07:00 PM.
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  #275  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

wolf, it really sounds like you need to approach this like michaelangelo approached sculpting marble. You know: drop existing keel, bolt on big slab of marble (lead) and just remove whatever doesn't look like the keel.

Wasn't it the Karate Kid where they said "Keel on, keel off. Keel on, keel off." ?

Of course mars metal would be glad to just cast a shoe for you to bolt on. Maybe not as much fun as a whole new boat but I'd bet over a quarter million cheaper.
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  #276  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
Jeff and I thought as long as we were fixing the keel we might as well fix the rest of the boat too. Call it "mission creep".
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  #277  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

So basically "let's design a totally different boat and try and keep enough of the looks to satisfy old wolfie"......well it's not just about looks (and the best parts of the looks have been toned down anyway).

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-15-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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  #278  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I find Brent's Origami process fascinating and would really like to watch one of the hulls being folded into shape. Many of his points such as welding chainplates, cleats & stanchions down make a lot of sense. One of his boats would certainly seem to be a good choice for serious voyaging - the security of steel can't be denied. I'd also be interested in some info on the weight of his boats - that frameless monocoque construction has to save a bunch of weight.

Having said that, I DO wish he'd dial back the utilitarianism a notch or two and increase the "yacht" factor by a corresponding amount.
They weigh about the same as framed boats but the true saving is in time and thus money, faireness greatly enhanced , zero filler needed. By the thicker plating it allows for the same weight, exponentially more resistant to distortion, and the greatly increased resistance to holing. Thicker plate also gives one a lot more forgivenes to corrosion. I've seen many boats which were a writeoff, but would have had decades left had the plate been thicker. Framing and lighter plate does nothing to reduce these problems.
The "Yacht factor" is basically the "dainty, flimsy and fragile look" factor. I find that if it looks dainty fragile and flimsy, it probably is. I refuse to design a boat dainty fragile and flimsy, the stakes are too high on ocean cruisers. Full time cruisers get the same rough treatment as workboats , and should thus be built more to workboat, funtional priorities. Experienced ocean cruisers are a lot more impressed by workboat priorities, than the dainty, flimsy, fragile "Yacht" look.
Read Moitessiers book "The Long Way" about a boat built to workboat priorites, which had far fewer problems and failures in a non stop 1 1/2 circumnavigations sail, rounding both the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn, than most boats built to "Yacht "priorities have in crossing the peaceful latitudes of the Pacific.
"Yachties were dismayed at the" Industrial " appearance of the round the world racing boats . Industrial works, decorative doesn't, in that kind of use.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 05-17-2013 at 04:22 PM.
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  #279  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff- really like what you did for "your boat" ? What are the mechanics of the lifting keel? ?How did you mitigate possible damage from grounding? Have you thought about the interior lay out? ?Why did you go with that shaped bulb? Would you construct in wood epoxy,GRP, cored GRP, cored exotics, metal or what? Feel like a 4 y.o. with to many questions. sorry
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  #280  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
I think you got it. It was about Jeff and me having some fun with a theme. We chose your boat and thought you might also have some fun with it. But you are very opinionated about yacht design and I do not find it easy to communicate with you. You seem to resist learning more. I've tried. Jeff has tried. But you know better. You thought your boat might have "183 degrees" of positive righting moment. It's documented here in your posts. I didn't make that up. That makes it difficult for me to carry on a cogent discussion of yacht design elements with you so long as you are resistant to learning. Some times the way forward is to say, "Oh, heck, I was wrong." Then you can move to the next level. But for now, you are a spectator while Jeff and I, with various input from others, bat the ball around. Nobody intended you to build this boat. It was just a frolic.

Oubound:
Whoa! This is just a sketch. You are asking detailed quiestions that are well beyond the scope of the design study at this stage. Chill. Back off. Go have a beer. Do something but leave Jeff alone to explore this design concept. Inquiring minds may want to know but at the same time let's have a little reality here.
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-15-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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