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  #291  
Old 05-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff- It's still impressive. Very well thoughout and a boat that will function in the "real world". How you solved some of the problems I though you would face is very ingenous. Like that those solutions should allow for a very comfortable interior. Now to find you a client to make it a reality. I would do it but you're a year late for me ( boat broke now but happy)
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  #292  
Old 05-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

As I said before what you did to make it a "better boat" also progressively removed the beauty of the original lines. The present design is known and sea tested very sea worthy, sea kindly in the nastiest of conditions while remaining a good performer in light to moderate conditions. As far as the esthetics of the final design.....well we all have different tastes, mine are based in a beauty and grace from an earlier time.
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  #293  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
......
The fourth design was intended to be the answer to a question aimed at myself. "What would a 14,000 lb boat designed to be my ideal boat look like?" Wolf, you probably would not like this last version for reasons that neither of us could explain, but she would be the most seaworthy, seakindly, have the most carrying capacity and be the fastest of the bunch. I would love her and take her anywhere.
Jeff, undoubtably she'd be faster (particularly with the longer waterline) but you say she'd be sea-kindly: Having a sharp turn of the bilge and a flattish bottom, wouldn't she pound significantly more than Atkin's original, giving the occupants a more uncomfortable ride??
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  #294  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

With this thread, it has been fun in my brain to come up with a better boat for myself, IF, I had the money to redo somethings on a boat in the size I would like. One of my things I would like, is the ability to plane in 20-30knots at about 2x hull speed. My thinking is, If I can do that, the front part of the boat hull would have to be somewhat flatish like my current boat. Yet she lbs HARD when going into the wind, with a current with you when motoring. To me a slightly rounded or V'd bottom up front, to hopefully slow the pounding, would probably screw up the wanted boat speed while sailing down wind!

Another issue, I would prefer a fairly vertical bow. Yet hauling an anchor up and down, you will potentially hit the bow with the anchor! So maybe a fixed prod a couple of feet long, to put the anchor forward a bit, along with increasing the spin J so one can get a bit mroe SA out of the spin! but now you are paying for liniar feet of boat ea month with morrage. Vs an extanding sprit like J-boats have. But this option can potentially get water in the forward cabin when the sprit goes back in. Takes up room in the V berth........

It comes down to a, If I do "this", what happens to "that" or if I do "that" what happens to "this"! The best one can do is try to comprimise with the end result hopefully getting the best of ea, but more likely a little of ea, with a major reduction of both.

I had also thought of a lifting dagger board keel. Altho here in Puget sound, draft is generally speaking, not an issue. I can see where this would be a BIG DEAL to Jeff, in deeper water he can have say 8' of draft, yet pull the dagger board up, and get into the 4'ish foot range, so he can get into the shallower estuary's that are around the area he sails. WIth tide ranges in the 14-15' range around here, you're either in DEEP water, or on the hard! if you start in 10' of water at times. ALtho not as bad as say England, bay of fundy where 20-30' tides can occur!

For the first draft of wolf's boat, I would still do a slightly lower rig, but longer boom, that to me would be more in keeping with the original design. On the other hand, I can also see where the last version is ALL Jeff! There is nothing to that design that wolf probably would like as he has noted.

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  #295  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

You keep talking about a faster boat....my hull (as are the options suggested) is restricted by hull speed. My LWL is 25' and "theoretical hull speed" is 6.75kt, even the increased LWL doesn't increase the hullspeed by more than 1/4kt. As it doesn't take much to get my boat to 6.5kt and hullspeed under sail is not hard to achieve on my boat.....how can a hull be "faster" (it's not like a car where if you want to go faster you put a bigger engine in it).....do you mean that you can achieve the same speed with less sail area.....well I could achieve the same speed with less sail area than I put up, the extra keeps hull as the limiting factor so if I hit heavy chop or the wind drops a bit it doesn't affect my speed....I think the term is "driving it hard"
Among the other "antique" features of my boat is the wood mast..more specifically a 47' laminated pre-stressed Sitka Spruce mast with built in camber (bend) along with rigging that enhances the bend...the flexy wood mast allows for all sorts of sail tweaks.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-17-2013 at 02:13 AM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf,

To me, one could do a wood mast with Jeff's design and still keep that part of the look you want. I would probably do/want aluminum myself. "BUT" I can see where some might/would prefer wood!

One can also put wood around the deck, cabin etc to keep the plastic look down. Now one is also making the boat heavier...........

Now we are back to that comment paragraph I made 20 or so min ago, What happens to "that" when you do "this"!

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Marty, what it comes down to is that there is no ideal boat that suits everyone.

I'm sure Wolf had a particular purpose in mind when he bought his bought in the first place and you'd like to think that purpose lines up with what Mr Atkin had in mind when designing it. Sometimes people's plans change and oftentimes, rather than sell it and buy soemthing else, they try to "tweak" their boat to make it suitable for some other purpose - but, more often than not, that stuffs it entirely.

For some people "Old Wood" ticks performance and aesthetics criteria not usually ticked by "Modern Plastic" and the designer has to keep the requirements of their client in mind.. even whilst pushing the boundaries as far as possible.
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Last edited by Classic30; 05-17-2013 at 03:17 AM.
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  #298  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wood trim is cosmetics.... I was talking about the esthetics of shape, from how the spoon bow complemented the rake on the wine glass transom to the most significant part, the grace of the deck shear and cabin (the beauty of which was removed in the "improved" versions), standing on the dock looking down the deck it has a very interesting shape, a wide foredeck (alot of flair so is still narrow at waterline) the purpose of which is two-fold, to give more working space on deck and keep the cockpit dry.
My plans never changed and the "tweaks" done to the boat over it's lifetime have all been valid improvements....the changes from Atkins original intentions are the forfeiting the simplicity for a boat that balances better, points better, over all performs better with improvements in sail handing as well as more options of sails.....basically even though it is not as simple it is easier and more efficient to sail.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-17-2013 at 03:41 AM.
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  #299  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
To me, one could do a wood mast with Jeff's design and still keep that part of the look you want. I would probably do/want aluminum myself. "BUT" I can see where some might/would prefer wood!
Marty, a wooden mast is an awesome thing. Mine is 40' long and a marvel in its design and construction: solid from the keel to about 3' above the deck, then hollow, solid around the spreaders, hollow to the jumpers then tapered, solid, almost to a point at the masthead. It was designed and built in 1957 and is still strong as ever.

Sure, aluminium is easy to build, maintain - and replace.. but for sheer craftsmanship there's nothing like a wood mast!
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Cam,

Having built a wood mast, along with the boat that the mast needed..........granted the boat was an 8' pram, mast all of 12' or so, even had a wood boom! I can appreciate the what it takes to make a good wood anything actually!
Having been in landscape construction for over 30 some odd years, I have had to work with multiple types of materials, from wood to concrete to rock.....yes even some plastics....one appreciates the different plus and minus's of ea material! I can see where on yours and wolf's boat, a wood mast would look better, and might even be best!

My step dad finished after 30 yrs, a Bill Garden designed Sea Bird yawl. A plywood version that was one of the last sets of plans in Rudder magazine as a 75th? anniversery of the original sea bird yawl being in the rag. He uses aluminum. Have to admit, not sure it looks as good as it would with wood. The shrouds and stays also do not seem to work as well with aluminum. As I am sure the aluminum needs and wants different thickness's of wire to work properly! A not how to do things sort of thing done!

I can see in the 4 prints, how ea boat should be appreciated etc. for the merits of what and how they were designed! Just as I mentioned how I would want some things done on my boat, if I had a chance to (get it) design and build it.

Marty
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