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post #311 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

At the Shark Sipt Regatta off Cortes Island, the first full moon of August every year, we race boats spanning many decades, from ultra modern to 30s and before designs. For several years in a row it has been won by a boat a lot like Wolfe's boat, a 1958 design, on which the short keel hung rudder has been removed and replaced by a rudder much further aft, hung on a skeg. She beat the far more "Modern" boats, boat for boat, several years in a row. There is no handicap system or rating system in this race. The skipper has said "If someone removes the rudder from an Alberg 37 and hangs it aft on a skeg ,I will never catch him."

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post #312 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

The so called "Modernized" version, with wide, flat aft lines and super lean bows, is the kind of hull which goes down by the bow, and the stern lifts up, when she heels, the centre of buoyancy moving well aft as she heels. This is the kind of hull shape which gets extremely hard to control downwind, a boat with zero directional stability. My first boat was that kind of bad hull balance. After sailing it across the Pacific, I never want to sail that kind of boat again, and certainly wouldn't want to impose it on anyone else.
Twin rudders may make it slightly more controlable , but it would still much rather broach than sail in a straight line, and I think using a balanced hull shape is a better and simpler solution.

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post #313 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The so called "Modernized" version, with wide, flat aft lines and super lean bows, is the kind of hull which goes down by the bow, and the stern lifts up, when she heels, the centre of buoyancy moving well aft as she heels. This is the kind of hull shape which gets extremely hard to control downwind, a boat with zero directional stability.
Brent,

You really like to say that don't you. As I have shown you in other threads on this topic, properly designed that just is not true. It has not been true with good designers for decades now. It is completely possible to design a boat with a fine bow and a powerful stern that does not change trim with heel. You really need to spend more time around modern boats.

Jeff


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post #314 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I believe there is an alternative universe where Alberg 35's with skeg hung rudders will be considered high performance boats and be faster than the modern designs of today.

Right.

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post #315 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

It's in Campbell River Bob - I'm surprised you don't know about it, living so close.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #316 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

JonB:
I am working hard right here on Port Susan trying to create my own alternative universe.

Hot rod Alberg 35:
I hate to kill a fairy tale but here goes.
If you removed the rudder from the A35 and moved it aft on a skeg you would probably be moving the rudder about 3' considering how long the chord of the A35 keel is as designed. The rudder would be tucked up under the counter so it would have to be a deep rudder. Now add a skeg and the net result will be a gain in wetted surface. So light air speed will suffer. The only possible benefit of moving the rudder would be to possibly improve helm feel, steering and most certainly handling under power. There is nothing about simply moving the rudder aft and adding a skeg that would improve the speed of an A35.

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Last edited by bobperry; 05-17-2013 at 06:30 PM.
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post #317 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The so called "Modernized" version, with wide, flat aft lines and super lean bows, is the kind of hull which goes down by the bow, and the stern lifts up, when she heels, the centre of buoyancy moving well aft as she heels. This is the kind of hull shape which gets extremely hard to control downwind, a boat with zero directional stability. My first boat was that kind of bad hull balance. After sailing it across the Pacific, I never want to sail that kind of boat again, and certainly wouldn't want to impose it on anyone else.
Twin rudders may make it slightly more controlable , but it would still much rather broach than sail in a straight line, and I think using a balanced hull shape is a better and simpler solution.
You mean boats like these?



We can see how difficult is to sail them and how little directional stability they have

Regards

Paulo


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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob/Jeff- got it. sorry for my clumsy use of language. Didn't think drag would impact on comfort but thought "polar moment" would have a negative impact on speed. Pesonally found if the period between waves was just right ( or wrong) the tayana made me ( and crew unhappy) far reaching. Thing would get a corkscrew motion that was unpleasant. Other than that was wicked comfy as we say in N.E. even beating.

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post #319 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Out:
You are totally correect. It goes for almost any boat that some combo of wave and wnd on a broad reach will make it behave less than gracefully. Old Ed Monk Sr. said that for Puget Sound a DWL of 34' was perfect for motion in our chop. The Valiant 40 has a DWL of 34'. Coincidence?

With a high polar moment of inertia the boat is bucking around buit equally as bad is the fact that the rig is bucking around also and given the arm of the rig it's bouncing and bcking around a lot. This makes consistant sail trim next to impossible and speed suffers.
Hard to sail efficiently when the angle of attack is swing through 30 degrees or more in the vertical plane.

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post #320 of 1155 Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Interesting thought on the DWL for here in puget sound. I know my 25'wl is not always that fun! Especially a few weeks ago, going against a 15-20knot wind out of the north, with 2-3 knots behind me! Buried the nose more than once. Along with the flattish section in front of the keel hitting at times.......anyway.......

Marty

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