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  #341  
Old 05-21-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ski:
Yes, I know the Wolf thinks his boat is perfect the way it is and I am very glad he thinks that. We should all love our boats so much. But I prefer to appreciate a boat for what it is and not pretend it is something else. Wolf's knee jerk defence of any negatuive comment about his boat's design is very predictable at this stage.

I have studied things like "half angle of entry" for years. I write about it in my book. I discuss it in my SAILING reviews. I know half angles of entry. A typical half angle of entry for a moderate cruising boat would be between 20 degrees and 22 degrees. I measure Wolf's at 30 degrees. This is "full". My own Baba 30, a tubby little boat (but lovable) has a half angle of entry of 24 degrees. I would never go fuller than that today.

So if Wolf wants to argue that his bow is not "very full" he should do some research into other bows so he can have some accurate comparative data.
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  #342  
Old 05-21-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Sorry about that when you said "full" I was not referring to of angle of entry i was referring to the significant difference between what it looks like if you look at the foredeck compared to a section taken at waterline.
The way our culture/economy works people are never satisfied with what they have (we are not supposed to be, we are trained to look towards what we cannot afford) and by the same token anything of an older design is considered to be inferior for the sole reason that it is "old".
My boat is an ocean cruiser and does a nice job on all points of sail in all conditions. There are alot of cruisers and/or full keels that are comfy below decks, in blow and in the marina slip, but can't get out of their own way in light air. A racing friend considers my Yankees "quaint" but does not see the advantages in sailing.
Originally my reaction/defensive position was more subtle, but as few seemed to pick up on it I had to exaggerate it a bit. I am happy with my boat, it is not just "until I can afford something better"
Thank you for recognizing that I am happy with my boat and seeing the importance in that.

People need to learn to be happy with what they have and/or what they can obtain. I have seen too many people who tried to buy a boat that was beyond their means and ended up with a bare bones boat which they struggled to be able to afford.....rather than a smaller boat with all the bells and whistles that they would have been a lot happier with...people are hung up on trying to impress they guy in the next slip, when you really only have to impress yourself.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-21-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

All right wolf just wondering who you know in the blue water community that are trying to impress people in the next slip. I know most of the PT blue water crowd who have set off for the long haul and I can't recall anyone of them trying to impress anyone but themselves with their cruising boat. I also have never met a blue water cruiser who went out and payed more for a boat to cruise in than they could afford. Some had good un expensive boats and others had expensive boats but they all seemed to sail away without the repo man coming after them. Like you most blue water cruiser are happy with the boat they have. You have a nice boat but gosh you complain a lot about some conspiracy that just about everyone in our community is foolish or being ripped off. Sorry not true.

Bob and Jeff are doing a nice job with your boat and it has been fun to watch.
Thank you boys and keep up the good work. I have learned a lot about boat design.
I hope I'm not too hard on Wolfe, it's just?
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  #344  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

While wolf seems 'almost ungrateful' for the efforts expended here, I think we probably need to realize that he never asked anyone to 'improve' the boat he already loves.

All the same, for the rest of us I think this whole process has been enlightening, educational and thoroughly enjoyable. Who wouldn't want to be in from the ground up on a new project such as this? Who hasn't admired the 'look' of a salty old cruiser and wished for the best of both worlds - ie the look, along with performance that is beyond that typical for boats of that era or type? The quintessential 'sleeper'

To my eternal envy, Hannah2 and Outbound are/have been able to enjoy that process of consulting, planning, and watching a new boat get created on their behalf. The rest of us can only vicariously enjoy this process unfolding before our eyes.

Carry on, gents, this is a great thread!!
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  #345  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ron, As usual you have hit on an important truth when you say, Wolf never asked anyone to 'improve' the boat he already loves, or at least not to the extent that Bob and I have taken this.

This began as a relatively mild, 'what if ?'; a simple exploration of would it be possible to alter Wolf's boat so she had a fin keel and skeg hung rudder but little else changed.

I must admit that I instigated the idea of going beyond that simple task, and Bob was kind enough to continue as coach and honesty keeper (as in keeping me honest).

And soon one good mission creep deserved another making the rest history. I have always understood that we have way overshot a reasonable runway for Wolf's original question, and landed a decade, or two, or three, or four, away from Wolf's target. (The current design perhaps a century beyond.)

It goes back to the Goldilocks phenomina from Brian's racers going cruising thread. For someone each version is just right. This current design is my just right bite of the porridge and bunk to catch an off-watch....

Jeff
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  #346  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Blame me.
I never expected Wolf to be "grateful". I did kind of expect him to be curious.
I should have chosen to do a fin keel version of a Baba 30. I'd be curious.
I'm sure Jeff would have had more fun beating me up.

"Where do you get off calling my boat fat?"
"You designed it Bob and it is fat."
"Oh yeah, now that you mention it...."
"I'm grateful to you Jeff for pointing that out."
" It was nothing Bob."
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-21-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
While wolf seems 'almost ungrateful' for the efforts expended here, I think we probably need to realize that he never asked anyone to 'improve' the boat he already loves.

All the same, for the rest of us I think this whole process has been enlightening, educational and thoroughly enjoyable. Who wouldn't want to be in from the ground up on a new project such as this? Who hasn't admired the 'look' of a salty old cruiser and wished for the best of both worlds - ie the look, along with performance that is beyond that typical for boats of that era or type? The quintessential 'sleeper'

To my eternal envy, Hannah2 and Outbound are/have been able to enjoy that process of consulting, planning, and watching a new boat get created on their behalf. The rest of us can only vicariously enjoy this process unfolding before our eyes.

Carry on, gents, this is a great thread!!
Faster,

We look forward to running into Wolfe in the South Pacific, hope his boat is strong enough! I'm sure he is a nice guy, if he drinks we will have him over.

Ya, Outbound and I are pretty lucky to have or be going through the process of a new boat. One month to go before we fly over to Treguier and do sea trials. As fun as this whole process is it can be nerve racking at times, always worrying about something, not the boat construction, that's unbelievable but lot's of little things and if they understand how we want the extra things. And Bob would know it can be pretty nerve racking for the NA and builder when you have clients like me that ask too many questions from long distance via email all the time.

Between Paulo's interesting sailboats and this one they are two of the best thread anywhere ever.

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I wasn't referring to the "blue water community" that actually go places....but the boat owners as a whole whose boats spend most of their life in a slip in the same place. I respect your efforts but still defend my boat. I had thought a displacement hull of the same size could only go so fast *.* (I have seen 1.34 and 1.37 *sqrt of the waterline length)....If I am wrong in that I apologize. My boat has a 25' LWL giving it 6.7 or 6.75 theoretical hull speed, as it doesn't take much to get it to 6.5 I will not complain about the 1/4kt.
I wasn't ungrateful, just defensive, everything has pros and cons...all of the cons of my boat appeared to based on the vintage of my boat with little talk about it's actual qualities. Your attempts may make a better boat in your eyes and/or for your application, but they just make me feel better about what I've got. In a "cookie cutter world" that tries it's hardest to suppress individuality, boats are and opportunity to express yourself...My boat and everything about it is an extension of who I am. I appreciate a combination of beauty and grace/form and function.
Hannah I am not sure about my schedule other than I plan to be out of the PNW by late July, hopefully in Panama by Christmas and I have no intention of going through the canal.
And Bob, yes I was curious to see what you would do, though the only significant advantages I saw were in the form of additional living space (something I could have improved on with the hull I have if I had input at the building).

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-21-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

got a call from my builder. he was worried I was sick as we are leaving Norfolk this Sunday and I haven't emailed.texted or called him in 4 days. Think it's a lot easier for me then Hannah2. Have the advantage of Phil being a thoughtful builder and 49 prior owners trying out multiple manipulations so have everyone had a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't before we started.think Hannah2 is breaking new ground and will end up with a great boat. big thing for us was to try to go without a generator(jury still out) and the ergonomics of a old man with bad knees with a small lady being able to run the d-mn thing in all weathers.think we got daily electrical use and production down. will see if we can sail it soon enough. agree with Hannah2 about threads. also learning on the fin/full thread altho think Bob's top is going to blow and want him and jeff to keep going.
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Last edited by outbound; 05-21-2013 at 09:13 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
If those were the only advantages you saw then I suggest you weren't looking very hard or more than likely you were not understanding what you were seeing. Face it. You are not open to new ideas and you only see what you want to see.

I express myself in every boat I have ever designed.

Out:
My top is still on. Just have to figure out if this is the right place for me. Being caught between Wolfe and Paulo is like being in a Herman Hesse novel.
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