Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 38 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree245Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #371  
Old 05-23-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

My rig originally did not have a fixed backstay (the 18' boom made that impossible), but even with the shortened boom to have enough of a roach to make any difference would require running the backstay out on a boomkin. For blue water sailing a batten-less sail will last longer. The quote I got is the base price I can expect to pay (though I added a few things like 8oz cloth, triple stitched, radial corners and a few other little "extras"). It will be awhile before I can afford a new main. Carol Hasse said the sail had 2-3 years left in it (by her standards), I will have her measure for a new sail, the mast has a significant camber (bend) and a slight rake....something that needs to be taken into account when having a new sail made.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #372  
Old 05-23-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,579
Thanks: 5
Thanked 95 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
To have enough of a roach to make any difference would require running the backstay out on a boomkin. For blue water sailing a batten-less sail will last longer.
Wolf,

I don't know who told you that but its wrong on both counts. Battenless mainsails generally need way more leech tension to work and that greatly shortens the life of the sail. You see them leech flapping their way around the world slatting the sail cloth fibers to death.

In term of lost sail area, a hollow leech on a boat like yours will typically have foot of hollow. Working off Atkin's drawings, with an 18 foot boom, you should be able have roughly 1 foot to as much as 16" of roach. That is somewhere between 45 and 55 square feet of sail area that you are giving away. That is really huge.

When you consider all the facts, like fact you like that your boat is well balanced, that you already have a two foot shorter boom than Atkins drew, and Atkins shows roach on his mainsail, and that hollow leech cut mainsails count on a lot of hook in the leech to minimize flapping, a hollow leech cut sail sounds like a really bad idea.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies

Last edited by Jeff_H; 05-23-2013 at 04:56 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #373  
Old 05-23-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

The original drawings were for an 18' boom with no fixed backstay (running backs) ....the boom is now 15' with a backstay, unless I move the bottom of the backstay out onto a boomkin, there isn't enough space for a roach. I never said a hollow leach, I just sail roach-less

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-23-2013 at 10:29 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #374  
Old 05-23-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

the solutions presentled to me for of my problems often are preceeded with "Why don't you just buy....." example, the new mainsail mentioned is 20-25% my annual income (and of course I would have to get a full suit of sails to match), the fix for the drag from my 16x9 three bladed prop is even more, an asymmetrical spinnaker is close, because my cockpit isn't bristling with techno gadgets and gizmos it was suggested I spend $5000 before I think about going anywhere, someone else insisted I needed a $4000 20gph watermaker.......
the words NEED & WANT are often confused....if we wait till we get everything we want that we think we need.....we will never leave the dock.....If you sit down and figure what you actually need, then add what you can to that you can sail away. I believe it was the Pardey's that said "Go simple go now".....I am not saying go so bare bones you are uncomfortable, I am just saying take a look at what is really necessary.
Brent Swain likes this.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-23-2013 at 10:42 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #375  
Old 05-24-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

When the main was cut down, the ability to add more sail area to the fore triangle was added (actually total sail area was increased). This took a very poorly balanced and inefficient rig and created a well balanced more efficient rig
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #376  
Old 05-24-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,579
Thanks: 5
Thanked 95 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:

I would agree with you that most of what has been discussed falls heavily into the category of 'wants' not 'needs'. You and I would probably agree that the only true 'needs' are food, water, air, and shelter from extreme conditions. Anything else is a 'want'.

Many of these suggestions would be improvements to the way your boat would sail. So some of of the participants in this thread would want these things if this were our boat, and so consequently have suggested these items thinking that you may wish to think about adding them at some point.

My comments on your mainsail result from me interpreting your post #317 as you saying that you want a new mainsail and are saving to buy one. My comments are only aimed at making sure that you understand what you are buying, and because your comments show that you have no clue about the realities of what you are saying.

First of all, actually measuring Atkin's drawings, it appears that Atkins has drawn the boom almost 20 feet long. That means that your boom is approximately five feet shorter than the original design. If your boat balances so well now, that means that Atkins really blew it badly. That would move the center of effort of the mainsail roughly 3'-4" forward of its original designed position. That is enormous. We normally think of a changing rake and inch or two as a big correction. Then when you add the increased jib luffs, that moves the center of effort even further forward.

As to the mainsail you seemed to mention wanting, while you did not mention the words 'hollow leech", the reality is that any reputable sail maker would not try to build a battenless mainsail without a hollow leech. A straight battenless leech would beat itself to death very quickly and would need a large leech cup to minimize that. The typical accepted recommendation for leech hollow on a battenless main falls between 2% and 5% of the leech length depending on the intended use of the sail, and its construction. 2% is 10" and 5% is roughly 2 feet.

If you sail maker has not explained that to you, then you really need a new sailmaker because no competent sailmaker would recommend a batten-less mainsail without explaining the buyer the generally accepted realities, i.e. that they have a shorter lifespan than a fully battened mainsail, that they have a hollow leech, and that therefore they have way less area.

Measuring the actual drawings, with a 15 foot boom, you could easily have as much as 18" to 20" of roach on your sail. That means that minimally, you are losing close to 50 feet of sail area. That is huge.

Respectfully,
Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies

Last edited by Jeff_H; 05-24-2013 at 01:43 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #377  
Old 05-24-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,579
Thanks: 5
Thanked 95 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
More complete lines and sail plan

So 'My Version' has been progressing nicely. Since the last post the efforts have been aimed at refining the hull shape and rig a little...smallish tweaks, lots of lunch hours. Here is where the design stands as we move into the long weekend....







The numbers are:
LOA 39'-11.5"
LWL 35'-6"
Beam 11'-9.75"
Draft Min. 5'-0"
Max 7'-6"
Displacement 14,475 Lbs.
Ballast 5,500 Lbs.
Sail Area Main 479 S.F.
100% fore 355 S.F.
Total 834 S.F.

D/L 144
L/B 3.01
SA/D 22.54
Prismatic Coef. 0.530156
LCB 55.68%



The next step is to start to lay out an interior.

Have a great weekend,
Jeff
Faster likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies

Last edited by Jeff_H; 05-24-2013 at 01:41 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #378  
Old 05-24-2013
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,695
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff,

Any reasone to use the shaft for the prop vs a outdrive? I will admit, that design may not handle an out drive per say......

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #379  
Old 05-24-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,579
Thanks: 5
Thanked 95 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I personally don't like sail drives. They are an example of a low maintenance but disposable technology. Even though they are a lower drag than a conventional shaft and strut, the deal buster is the proprietary folding props and annual maintenance on sail drives require a haul out.
Brent Swain likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #380  
Old 05-25-2013
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,695
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff,

Thanks for info, did not know about a few of those points. They do not seem to get mentioned, other than the lower drag etc.

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bob Perry's Tragic Loss smackdaddy General Discussion (sailing related) 16 07-09-2013 10:57 AM
What's your dream boat? dovetailnj General Discussion (sailing related) 58 07-08-2013 12:48 PM
What's your dream boat??? DavidB.UK General Discussion (sailing related) 4 06-22-2013 04:06 PM
Perry's new Sunday blog bobperry General Discussion (sailing related) 12 11-07-2011 06:05 PM
A boat dream! pjboots Boat Review and Purchase Forum 28 03-22-2007 03:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:15 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.