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  #411  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
...the pitfalls of following trendiness over logic...in the grip of commercial hype, and disinformation.. Market demands are are shinyness and trendiness over logic.( style over substance values)...the effect of mass advertising to the gullible masses, and to the gullibility of those masses, not to quality...
Exactly my point Brent. If, as a consumer, I don't buy into your arguments, according to you I'm falling into the obvious pit, throwing away logic while being mesmerized by shinyness and trendiness, sacrificing my values and money to style over substance, and, most damning, being gullible.

That's not propagandizing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I have never wanted to build a lot of boats, just enough to help the small percentage of practical people.
What is that percentage? Maybe 1%? What happened to the 99%?

I'll drop this debate now. Like I've said many times, you have some great ideas. But you don't have the answers you think you have. As has always been the case throughout history, great design is an alchemy of many things (form, function, utility, demand, durability, cost, scalability, fun, and on and on). If you focus on only 1 or 2 of these things and declare that THAT is "the answer" and/or "the only 'logical' conclusion" - you're missing it.

Now to the important stuff...What do you think about Night Runner?
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  #412  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I saw that batten silliness above.

Its funny; I have had perhaps a half a dozen mainsails with full- length battens and sailed on dozens of other boats with full batten mainsails. The battens and their pockets have never been the part of the sail that wore out. I do have sticki-back chafe patches on the pockets where the full length battens hit the shrouds on deep reaching and running angles, and I typically have added another layer at some point in the life of the sail.

The cost for my last mainsail included quotes for conventional and full length battens, and they were the same as the cost for both. Given the much longer sail life with the full length battens I opted for the full length battens. I did opt to splurge on high tech batten tension adjusters with a gauge and screw adjuster, and those added another $100 to the sail (less labor, more part costs).

The way that I see this, even if a battenless mainsail saved any money, it would be a false economy given the considerably shorter life these sails have. But then again, its not me buying these sails, but clearly there is a huge difference in my concern for durability and performance vs. theirs.

Jeff
You compared sail life w/ partial battens to full battens....did you also figure in life span of a batten-less sail? I agree that a sail w/ full length battens probably would last longer than partial .....but to put on a sail with full battens would mean I would have to replace the "T-track" on my mast and because my backstay position doesn't allow for much of any roach at all, the most it would accomplish is better sail shape and maybe ease of reefing. Add to the price of batten-less sail.....batten pockets, full length battens and track designed to take full length battens (I was quoted $1000 for just the track alone). My mast is laminated Sitka Spruce with a luff of 37'.

On a different note.... When growing up I used to ride a big old grey (horse) who was sort of stocky and showed his working lineage. The horse beat out quarter horses and other such "fancy" horses at shows. The judges referred to him as being an "athletic horse". The analogy to my boat is pretty close, she too is from a working lineage and though not as fast ....isn't as skittish as the race horse version of a sail boat.
For a 7ton wood boat w/ fullish keel, "antiquated" rig, old cut cruisng sails (blown out by racing standards), 16" three bladed prop, sailed by a cruisng sailor....I think she does pretty well. I never thought for a moment my boat was a racing boat...I would not of been so happy with if it were. I too am not a racing sailor, racing is too stressful for me...I sail to relax (though some people find relaxation in competition, can't see how, must be a byproduct of our culture).

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-29-2013 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
You don't have to go full battens. You can go long, partial battens. That's what I had on my boat. I did have full battens at the top two but partial under that. Short battens were an artifact of the IOR rating rule. I would bet you could find a good used racing main that could be cut, if needed, to fit your boat for a very good price. I'd sure as hell exhaust that approach first before I bought a new sail. Some racing mains are discarded after one season of use.
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  #414  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wolf:
You don't have to go full battens. You can go long, partial battens. That's what I had on my boat. I did have full battens at the top two but partial under that. Short battens were an artifact of the IOR rating rule. I would bet you could find a good used racing main that could be cut, if needed, to fit your boat for a very good price. I'd sure as hell exhaust that approach first before I bought a new sail. Some racing mains are discarded after one season of use.
Thanks Bob: I was going to go that route for jibs.....it's definitely worth a look. I am going to get all the appropriate measurements for my sail before I leave. I plan on spending several months in the San Fransisco area....should be able to find something down there and someone to do the appropriate modifications. Just the proportions 37'x15' aren't quite the same cut as a racing boat now adays, I have a couple of names of places in the bay area who deal in used sails.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-29-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
You compared sail life w/ partial battens to full battens....did you also figure in life span of a batten-less sail? I agree that a sail w/ full length battens probably would last longer than partial .....but to put on a sail with full battens would mean I would have to replace the "T-track" on my mast and because my backstay position doesn't allow for much of any roach at all, the most it would accomplish is better sail shape and maybe ease of reefing. Add to the price of batten-less sail.....batten pockets, full length battens and track designed to take full length battens (I was quoted $1000 for just the track alone). My mast is laminated Sitka Spruce with a luff of 37'.
Wolf,

As I explained in an earlier post, battenless mainsails have a really short lifespan because they require much higher leech tensions to maintain shape. Unless you use a really heavy fabric (that would kill lighter air ability) those leech loads quickly stretches out the leech weakening the fabric as well requiring a hooked leech to prevent really bad flutter. The longest lifespan comes with full length battens or as Bob suggests, a mix of full length uppers and longer length lowers.

Also as I explained earlier, you keep on saying, "my backstay position doesn't allow for much of any roach at all". That is not even close to true at all. I have measured your drawings and you can get a reasonably nice amount of roach without having it hang up on your backstay. That would add perhap 15% to 20% more area in your mainsail, with less heeling and weather helm than the hooked leech of a battenless mainsail.

You do not need to add special hardware or high tech track. I know the sail makers love to push these high teck tracks and gear but in reality, I have a much larger mainsail than you and I have simple slugs on my mainsail. There is no problem getting them up and down. I had the battens configured horizontally so they do not jamb at the track when dropped. There are a range of specialized low drag slugs out there that fit a broad range of track types, but I would not think you need to worry about them.

Bob Perry is also right about looking for a decent quality use mainsail and adding full length battens to extend it's life. On the other hand, your rig is a little lower aspect than most so that may not be possible.

Jeff
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  #416  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Batten-less vs Fully Battened appears to be one of those things that has strong supporters for each (I have also heard of laminates being used in lew of fully battened, just to complicate matters). Add to that people only having an opinion that supports their application, then try and sort out valid data that applies to you from that that doesn't along with the invalid data. My personal choice is either fully battened or full/partial.
If you draw a straight line from the tack to the head the distance to the backstay is about 6" at the head (point of reference, the distance from head to masthead is 12", I admit boom is a tad shorter than in drawing). My boat does have a 2 1/2'+ boomkin, originally for a wind vane, which would allow me to relocated the bottom of the backstay and make room for a roach.


On another point using that fancy software some people here seem to have I would like to see two views one slice at static water line and two a slice at the boats preferred heel of about 25 degrees (use the hatch on the drawing between waterline and rub rail as the point where the waterline at heel is). This should explain a bit about how/why my boat behaves the way it does

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-29-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Here are a couple of nice photos taken of NIGHT RUNNER during the Swiftsure Race last weekend.
Photos by JAN, thanks Jan.

I hate battenless mains. You can't control the shape and the draft moves too far aft. If you are after optimal performance there is no argument, you must have battens.
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Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-night-runner-jan-1-11x7.jpg   Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-night-runner-jan-2-11x7.jpg  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Here are a couple of nice photos taken of NIGHT RUNNER during the Swiftsure Race last weekend.
Photos by JAN, thanks Jan.

I hate battenless mains. You can't control the shape and the draft moves too far aft. If you are after optimal performance there is no argument, you must have battens.
I will keep your suggestion in mind when I am in a part of the world with enough racing so finding a "retired" racing sail that can be altered to fit my boat is possible.
Also when I have my main measured I will also have a variation taking into consideration moving the base of the backstay out onto the boomkin. Boomkin is an A-frame construction 2" thick laminated teak and bottom 6' of backstay is split which gives me two connection plates on the transom which can be easily moved. It's possible, just have to decide if it's worth the effort.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Beneteau's production is a testimony to the effect of mass advertising to the gullible masses, and to the gullibility of those masses, not to quality.
WHAT A CROCK!!!!

You know, Brent, there are some of your ideas that are good ideas and good things to pass down. But for the life of me, I cannot think of a single one right now because you spit out this kinda crap that screws up everything else you say.

Beneteau makes a damned good boat for the money. Is it my cup of tea? Nope. But they make a good boat. TO even insinuate that not only are they a marketing gimmick, but everyone who ever bought one is gullible, is such a farce I don't know where to begin... but I will try.

Let see if I get this straight:

You have a steel boat. You pay a max $350 for a used sail which I assume was not properly cut for your mast or designed for you boat. You pull out battens and criticize roach. Just curiously, on one of these origami boats of yours, how fast do you sail and at what wind speeds? DOn't get me wrong, I haven't bought into the J122 for a cruiser crap. But I do like a boat that actually sails forward in reasonable wind speeds. How close can you point to the wind? What is your average SOG when making a passage? What do you plan for? Quite candidly, with some of your comments, your boats remind me of many of the steel hulks I see up in the PNW that are rusted out and never leave the dock unless under the guise of an over-worked engine. Comfortable? I have no idea. Probably. But it ain't safer than a plastic boat if it can't move through the water faster than the flotsam that is floating beside it, it's just more flotsam and jetsam and one bad bilge pump away from being a great reef.

Brian
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  #420  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
Not sure you need to move your backstay. I'd have to see a drawing of your rig as is now. The one critical measurement for boom length relative to the backstay is that if you swing an arc from the gooseneck to the outboard end of the boom in the vertical plane the boom must clear the backstay. If not, in a wild flying jibe the boom could come up and catch on the backstay in the middle of the jibe. If your boom clears the backstay at all angles then it's location is fine. You do want some roach but on a cruising boat I don;t like the roach to overlap the bckstay any more than approx. 4". If it overlaps more than that you run the chance of having the main catch on the backstay when you tack in light air. Like it did on my own boat. It's easy to shake free but it's a pain in the ass.

Gosh, gee whilikers, I'm starting to sound like the nice guy around here. Amazing.
Go get 'im Brian.
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