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  #431  
Old 05-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

somebody once said to me.."anyone can sail, but it takes a man to reef".

On the battens/less discussion: Why not go with a full batten at the top and 3 or 4 mid length battens below?
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  #432  
Old 05-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

THen there is Cptn Fatty of CW fame/writer, ALWAYS has a reef in the main.....if one is going to ALWAYS have a reef in the main, why not just make the main the size of a reefed sail, and not have the make shift shape of a reefed sail per say! then plan for 2 or 3 other reefs at that size, not hamper yourself with one reef already taken out when the wind pipes up!

I have to admit, IF we had designed my perfect boat per say, I would have a sa/disp for racing in the 25-1 range. full roach, flicker, not sure how big a jib...one gets the picture. THEN, when it is just spouse and I sailing/cruising. I "WOULD" have a smaller main made, and probably a 95% fortriangle self tacking jib, putting me in the 19 or 20-1 range. That might be a bit on higher end of the SA range for some cruisers. but here in the salish sea. with winds typically under 15 knots, or like last night. 6-12......that is enough to keep me moving, and not turning on the iron genny! If I was on the open ocean, I could potentially see 18-1........

reality is, how one powers or sizes the sails for a boat, should depend upon the area they sail etc. I personally would not do a battenless main! heck, my 110 jib has battens in it! even if I kept the roach to a minimum, there would be some battens! I do like my current main with 2 full top, and 2 partial lowers. If I had a bigger boat say upp 30+, 2 full 3 partial......

as I said before, some ways folks sail, make no sense ala the always have a reef example!

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  #433  
Old 05-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I look at reefing as a way to optimize performance not a survival technique, although it could be. It's not much fun to sail an overpowered boat and you aren't doing the boat and the sails any favors either. The best way to destroy a sail quickly is to use it in more wind than it was designed for.

On battens:
If I had the offshore sailing miles on me that the Pardeys have I might be using a battenless main too. Maybe, just maybe. But certainly not for the type of sailing I have done in the PNW.

On '60's question:
On my own boat I had one full batten at the top and three long, half battens under them.
The full top batten helped me add roach near the head. My boat had an anemic SA/D. Poor little thing.

It seems odd to me that we don't have some sail makers lurking here. I am not comfortable expounding on sail design issues. I know sails but I have never been a sailmaker. In my own sailing and my own work I would defer to a sailmaker on sail details. I tell the sail maker what I want and they tell me what I need. I'm good with that.

That said:
Remember, most batten lenghths were taken from the racing rule standard. Under the IOR the batten lengths were restrcited to ao% of "E" for the top and botom batten and 12% of "E" for the middle two battens, only four battens allowed. But while this was rule specific it became the standard for almost every mainsail made. It was the "defeault" if you didn't specify otherwise.

My reason for doing this is that I wanted a slightly more demanding sai to trim than a fully battened sail. The problem with a full batten main is that it always looks just fine. You can sail with the main way out of trim and the full battens will keep the sail looking good. My fear is that with full battens I could become a lazy trimmer. I wanted a main that would "break" quickly when luffing and let me know when my trim was off. You could do this with a full batten main but you'd have to close attention to yout telltails. I wanted an extra bit of help. And consider that the mighty PERRYWINKLE was 26' LOA so not having full battens did not provide anykind of main flaking problem. It's a small sail.
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-30-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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  #434  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I pulled out the tape to measure how much space I actually have, 24" from clue (would still less than 1' from the leach side of the headboard) to backstay. Which as before does not allow for much of a roach. The original rig did not have a backstay or cap shrouds or spreaders or the capability of flying a large headsail off the masthead. My running backs were moved down the mast to 10' from the masthead when the fixed backstay and masthead jib capability was added.
Adding a significant roach would increase sail area of the main, but would also move the center of effort aft, adding weather helm....there are other ways of improving performance of the main without adding sail area, if I want to add sail area I can do that before the mast.
As far as the type of sailing I plan on doing....I am definitely planning on a considerable amount offshore. The only battens I will consider will be a combination.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-30-2013 at 12:16 PM.
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  #435  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Adding roach will not necessarily add weather helm if the sail is well made. If the sail can keep the max draft forward and the last 30% of chord pretty straight you should be fine.
But I don't think you should worry about roach. Just get a "normal" roach and don't be concerned with adding mainsail area.
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  #436  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob: thanks.....when I am in a part of the world where "retired" racing mains are available I will have one recut to fit my boat, Because I don't want to/can't afford to dump alot of money into a fancy track system I will stick with my old T-track. I will go with long partial battens. I have an excessively large inventory of headsails...until I can figure what works and what doesn't I might try the same source to upgrade jib cuts I find work well.
Though some people consider a Yankee to be "quaint" I have found a large Yankee on a pennant on the topmast stay with a regulat cut Genny (with a slightly high clue) on the head stay set very nicely together....to windward the performance would be waaaay better than a than single really large Genny (with the added bonus of visibility). I don't have the nasty weather helm, can point alot higher and when it comes time to shorten sail it's alot easier to drop one smaller sail than drop a really big sail then put up a smaller sail. The two big Gennys (one is foiless roller) I have are terrific wing and wing in light air for down wind sailing or singley light air .

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-30-2013 at 02:05 PM.
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  #437  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I saw that batten silliness above.

Its funny; I have had perhaps a half a dozen mainsails with full- length battens and sailed on dozens of other boats with full batten mainsails. The battens and their pockets have never been the part of the sail that wore out. I do have sticki-back chafe patches on the pockets where the full length battens hit the shrouds on deep reaching and running angles, and I typically have added another layer at some point in the life of the sail.

The cost for my last mainsail included quotes for conventional and full length battens, and they were the same as the cost for both. Given the much longer sail life with the full length battens I opted for the full length battens. I did opt to splurge on high tech batten tension adjusters with a gauge and screw adjuster, and those added another $100 to the sail (less labor, more part costs).

The way that I see this, even if a battenless mainsail saved any money, it would be a false economy given the considerably shorter life these sails have. But then again, its not me buying these sails, but clearly there is a huge difference in my concern for durability and performance vs. theirs.

Jeff
Over the last 40 years of mostly full time cruising I have found that the life of a battenless mainsail is much longer than that of a battened mainsail.

Love the look of varnish; on someone elses boat, especially when they are maintaining it while I'm going hiking, diving sailing etc.
I see lots of beaver float planse taking off, designed in the 30s , but just as relevant today, for the job they were designed for. Some boats are that way too.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

John Letcher, author of the self steering book, and an aircraft designer , calculated that the benefit of a roach was between zero and 3%.
A roach on any given sail will definitely add weather helm, but a better sail shape will reduce it.
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  #439  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Fine Brent so the battenless main far outlives the shape of the sail. Whoopee. But considering the shape of a battenless main maybe that's OK. They look bad when they are new! I don't care for that "catcher's mitt" sail shape. It is slow and increases the heeling moment.

Your Letcher quote is silly. How is he measuring that? How much roach? What does "3%" mean exactly? 3% of what? It's a dumb comment. A roach can add up to 40% of the area over a battenless, hollow leach main. I have measured this when the first Saga 43 was launched with a battenless main. It was a dramatic reduction in sail area. 3% is BS. Look around. Don't you see the extent that roach is being used today. Do you think they do that because it's photogenic?

Most cruisers keep the sail far beyond the time the shape has left. I know it can be an economic thing and I understand that. But let's not talk about efficient sail shape with a 15 year old sail. You just have to do your best with it.
"I have too much weather helm."
"How old is your mainsail?"
"It's the original main and it's about 16 years old."
" Your sail is undoubtedly blown out. The shape designed into the original sail has now been stretched out. You need a new main with the right amount of draft in the right place. Then we can address the helm issue if you still have it."

Maybe the sail should self destruct automatically when the shape goes to hell. I don't drive cars with bald tires either.

Wolfer:
I'm not going along with everything you said there. I know I have designed a lot of cutters and I have sailed a lot of different cutters. I like to think I know how to make cutters go.

If you think you go to weather better carrying two headsails I'm not sure you are really "going to weather" by most standards (using VMG as a benchmark). I suspect you are close reaching. You would need to be seeing an apparent wind angle at least of 35 degrees to be considered "going to weather" efficiently. If not then you are falling off to the point where the two headsails don't fight each other, draw nicely and give you more boat speed. This can seem very effective if you are ouit sailing by yourself without another boat to compare to. But if you were to have some good sailing instruments I think you would find that while boat speed (BS) is up actual VMG is down. You are going fast through the water but you are not going fast towards your target directly to weather. I have experimented with cutter rigs and how to get the most out of them upwind since 1974 when the first Valiants were launched and in racing situations. What I found consistantly is that a normal, low clewed genoa will allow you to sail closer to the wind than two headsails and result in better VMG's. Reaching even close reaching is another story and there two headsails can be made to work very effevtively. That's why you often see racing sloops set a staysail on a blast reach.

This is something you can only test on the race course with bnoats around you or using veryu accurate sailing instruments that will give you VMG readouts.
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-30-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
WHAT A CROCK!!!!

You know, Brent, there are some of your ideas that are good ideas and good things to pass down. But for the life of me, I cannot think of a single one right now because you spit out this kinda crap that screws up everything else you say.

Beneteau makes a damned good boat for the money. Is it my cup of tea? Nope. But they make a good boat. TO even insinuate that not only are they a marketing gimmick, but everyone who ever bought one is gullible, is such a farce I don't know where to begin... but I will try.

Let see if I get this straight:

You have a steel boat. You pay a max $350 for a used sail which I assume was not properly cut for your mast or designed for you boat. You pull out battens and criticize roach. Just curiously, on one of these origami boats of yours, how fast do you sail and at what wind speeds? DOn't get me wrong, I haven't bought into the J122 for a cruiser crap. But I do like a boat that actually sails forward in reasonable wind speeds. How close can you point to the wind? What is your average SOG when making a passage? What do you plan for? Quite candidly, with some of your comments, your boats remind me of many of the steel hulks I see up in the PNW that are rusted out and never leave the dock unless under the guise of an over-worked engine. Comfortable? I have no idea. Probably. But it ain't safer than a plastic boat if it can't move through the water faster than the flotsam that is floating beside it, it's just more flotsam and jetsam and one bad bilge pump away from being a great reef.

Brian
A friend with one of my 36 footers raced on a Beneteau. He said going forward on the decks was like runing an obstackle course, it was small and cluttered. He said if you left the helm for a second, it would instanly go off course. My 36 tracks like she is on rails.
My last trip south, leaving BC, I was south of Hawaii in 14 days. My best days run was 175 miles in 24 hours, in a heavily loaded 31 footer. I made two trips from Hawaiii to BC in 23 days, mostly to windward in a heavily loaded 31 footer, lived aboard for decades. Last time I left Tonga at the same time as a 28 ft aluminiun Bob Perry design. I took 57 days to BC, he took 99 days. You wouldn't do much better in any heavily loaded 31 footer, with all that the owner owns aboard.
I saw a Beneteau hauled out, with 38 flimsy plastic thru hulls, which you could easily break out with a light kick, leaving an inch and a half hole in the boat, mostly below the waterline. Mine use welded in stainless pipe nipples . Beneteaus dont have any back up plates undee their stanchions. Mine are welded in, sch 40 pipe, 34 inches off the decks.
My boats dont rust out, as long as they follow the directions I give them. If they dont, then that is not my fault. Most don't tie to docks, one is enroute from Cape horn to the Aleutians, several are finishing circumnavigations and several are leisurely cruising Mexico and the South Pacific, while others are cruising full time in BC waters, unlike the expensive plastic boats ,which leave their owners so broke that they have to tie the boat to a dock and spend years earning the money to pay for them. Do they sail faster? Not if you include the time peope spend working to pay for them, then pay the moorage, insurance, repairs, sails maintenance etc. while the guy in the more affordable Brentboat is out cruising and making miles. The guy in the so called "fast boat" will never sail enough miles to make up for the time he has wasted at the dock..
If I spend the cost of a new mainsail, and it forces me to put off sailing for the winter, and the head start the difference would have given me, will I end up having covered more gound than if I had bought the slower used sail, and got a years head start? Not a chance!
One 36, cruising in company with a 35 ft Beneteau, leaving port at the same time, was always arriving at his destination way ahead of the Benny, despite being heavily loaded.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I arrived in Auckland with a battened mainsail, falling apart around the batten pockets.. Getting rid of the battens let me sail another 3,000 miles, in squally conditions , without popping a stitch. And you say I could have done the same without doing a thing to the falling apart sail, or eliminating that which was causing it to fall apart?
Ya, sure!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 05-30-2013 at 07:11 PM.
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