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  #451  
Old 05-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I take it you mean the intermediates....They actually terminate 2' above where the intermediates and head stay terminate, which is actually lower than where it was originally (though originally there was no backstay or cap shrouds). The base of the intermediates is several feet back from the mast forming a fairly steady tripod on it's own. The original purpose of the running backs on this boat was in lew of a fixed backstay. The running backs serve two purposes, one to keep the mast from "pumping" and two to reinforce the fixed backstay by providing a better angle.
Righto.. although I'd have thought the running backs terminated waaayy too high to keep the mast from "pumping"?
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  #452  
Old 05-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I think he still has credibility. His hulls look nice and I am certain that if toughness and durability is your goal a steel boat is the way to go. His decks structures and overall aesthetics are far too agricultural for me but one of his boats looked quite nice. The blue one. Some others not. It's Brent's never ending effort to justify what he builds as the ultimate and only answer and to put down everything that is different that I find a bit off putting. " Hey Mom, that kid's making fun of my boats!"

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  #453  
Old 05-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I think he still has credibility. His hulls look nice and I am certain that if toughness and durability is your goal a steel boat is the way to go. His decks structures and overall aesthetics are far too agricultural for me but one of his boats looked quite nice. The blue one. Some others not. It's Brent's never ending effort to justify what he builds as the ultimate and only answer and to put down everything that is different that I find a bit off putting. " Hey Mom, that kid's making fun of my boats!"

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  #454  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wrong clip Smackers. You want the Tequila clip.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Do the shoes make me look too agricultural?

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  #456  
Old 05-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Righto.. although I'd have thought the running backs terminated waaayy too high to keep the mast from "pumping"?
What causes the pumping is the pull of the forestay, which is 2' below the connection point of my running backs.....also the fact that my mast is laminated wood rather than aluminum makes a bid differance.
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  #457  
Old 05-31-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
The fact that your mast is wood rather than aluminum should make no differnce in the fore and aft stiffness. The problem is your mast is undersized in the fore and aft dimension. If your mast were physically larger fore and aft or the side panels of the laminated spar were thicker the mast would be stiffer. This is measured in "moments of inertia" and that measurement involves the dimensions of the spar and the material used. If your present spar was designed for the old fractional rig it is on the light side for the masthead conversion. You are now compensating for this by using the runers. That is not unusual. Some people like a fexible spar so they can use mast bend to change mainsail shape. The more you bend your mast the flatter your mainsail.

But you often comment about "camber" in your mast. This is what is known as "mast bend" not camber. It may be present in your rig due to the top of the mast being too light. Your "longest unsupported panel" is too big for your spar section. That's OK so long as you use the runners to try to keep the mast in column by reducing the longest unsupported panel. You coud also fit some jumper struts and jumper stays at the hounds. This would hep pull the masthead back and keep the mast in column. But at the same time the jumpers might interfere with your headsails. In the old days jumper struts were very common on rigs like yours.

Having a "noodle" for a mast is ok and on some boats is seen as beneficial. The IOR boats of the 70's often had very bendy rigs. But today we tend to go with a more rigid spar. It means you don't have to be concerned about mast bend so much.

Hope this helps you understand what you have.

L. Francis Herrshoff saw rig design as pure art. Norman Skene saw rig design as pure engineering.
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  #458  
Old 05-31-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
A friend with one of my 36 footers raced on a Beneteau. He said going forward on the decks was like runing an obstackle course, it was small and cluttered. He said if you left the helm for a second, it would instanly go off course. My 36 tracks like she is on rails.
Then he didn't know how to balance his boat and needs to go back to sailing school. He probably didn't know how to trim his sails and tweek them for maximum speed and efficiency. He probably doesn't understand how adjusting the traveller, the out haul, the jib track, etc, etc changes the dynamics of a finely engineered machine and not a welded together pile of metal. If he bought into your opinions of no roach, no battens, and $350 sails at the flea market not even cut to your boat, then I can certainly see where he would think a First is too complicated, cluttered, and his steel boat bobbing around at a couple of knots is ideal for him. And you know what, Brent, I have NO problem with that. I am glad he has found a boat that fits his tastes. But that is a poor example because unlike KNOWING someone that has been on those boats, I have BEEN on them and they are pristine at sailing and finely engineered sailing machines built for speed and some comfort down below. I won't rehash the whole Racer for a cruiser thread, as you know I do not believe they are good cruisers and not a good comparison to your boat or mine, but never the less, that boat by anyone even partially competent would quite literally sail CIRLCES around your boat. Please don't disagree with that because you and I and the rest of the sailing and racing world knows it is true. Now, next...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My best days run was 175 miles in 24 hours, in a heavily loaded 31 footer. I made two trips from Hawaiii to BC in 23 days, mostly to windward in a heavily loaded 31 footer, lived aboard for decades. Last time I left Tonga at the same time as a 28 ft aluminiun Bob Perry design. I took 57 days to BC, he took 99 days. You wouldn't do much better in any heavily loaded 31 footer, with all that the owner owns aboard.
You and I totally agree that the difference between a "weekenders" boat and a true, fulltime liveaboard-cruiser are TOTALLY different. That comes because we have both been there (and I am doing it now, again, still). Never the less, 175nm/24 hours = 7.3 kts avg. Assuming your Load(ed) Water Line or LWL is circa 28-29 feet, that puts your Theoretical Hull Speed at about 7.1-7.2. That is not bad. Congratulations. Incidentally, what you are writing as your best time ever, most of the "plastic boats" (mine included) going to weather will always be at or over hull speed in winds at 15-20 sustained... fully loaded. I have already posted pics of it here. I bet we pinch a lot tighter than you do too - which in my opinion, can be even more important that SOG. Even on my best day, a Bene First will point higher than me and outrun me. So at 15 sustained, what speeds are you running? How close are you pinched? Reality is you can't compete with us, just like I cannot compete with many Benes.

As far as you beating one of Bob's aluminum boats, good for you. But other than the fact he had less water line, was he racing you? Same sails? Same sailing skills? I mean come on, are we really comparing apples:apples? So if I sail out of here, throw all my sails up, petal to the metal, and zoom by a TP-52 that I see going the same location, does that make my boat faster? HELL NO! Just means he either doesn't know how to sail or isn't interested in racing or has run aground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I saw a Beneteau hauled out, with 38 flimsy plastic thru hulls, which you could easily break out with a light kick, leaving an inch and a half hole in the boat, mostly below the waterline. Mine use welded in stainless pipe nipples . Beneteaus dont have any back up plates undee their stanchions. Mine are welded in, sch 40 pipe, 34 inches off the decks.
I call BS. Name the boat type. And you know they could be kicked out because you did it, you did hull-analysis, or because you walked by and you just "know"? That is another one of your baseless statements that have no basis in fact, but are thrown out by you as such. If this boat is a 49 (which I believe has 3x Thulls), I have been on that boat. Had one in our last marina. Know the owner and we are friends and he has sailed all over the caribbean, S America, bahamas, and keys on that boat. That boat easily runs over 10 kts on a moderate day... easy! Certainly not a flimsy hull either as he took it out in TS Debby just to see what it would do. I was there and INVITED (and quickly declined)! He pushes that boat to the limit and blows out brand new ($7000) spinnakers and has even pushed the boat so hard he blew a sheet!! Blew a new jib sheet! Zero structural damage to the boat. How many of your owners have taken them out in TS just to see how fast they will go or push them to their limits? Try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My boats dont rust out, as long as they follow the directions I give them. If they dont, then that is not my fault.
Steel boats rust. Please don't deny that they don't. How bad and when depends on the owner and the upkeep... I get that. But just like I prefer to cruise maintenance free with everything but my flagpole made out of fiberglass, I also prefer to cruise with a can of wax and a buffing rag over a belt sander and 20 gallons of rustoleum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Most don't tie to docks, one is enroute from Cape horn to the Aleutians, several are finishing circumnavigations and several are leisurely cruising Mexico and the South Pacific, while others are cruising full time in BC waters, unlike the expensive plastic boats ,which leave their owners so broke that they have to tie the boat to a dock and spend years earning the money to pay for them.
That is such a load of bull, I don't know where to begin. First of all, you wanna compare how many Benes have circumed or are out there cruising versus Brentdesigns?? Benes are cruising and have been cruising all over the world for decades. Many have circumnavigated. Crap, even a Hunter 50 just rounded Cape Horn and he posts here (I forget his name now). Ask Mark of Sea Life about plastic boats sitting around. Didn't he just finish his circum and is back in the carrib!? We have a Catalina 42 who posts here that just crossed the Atlantic (by himself) and is now cruising the med. We have Killarney Sailor who is almost completed his circum and now sits in S Africa. That comment by you is an absolute, complete bunch of bologna and I just proved it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Do they sail faster? Not if you include the time peope spend working to pay for them, then pay the moorage, insurance, repairs, sails maintenance etc. while the guy in the more affordable Brentboat is out cruising and making miles. The guy in the so called "fast boat" will never sail enough miles to make up for the time he has wasted at the dock.
What does that have to do with the price of bread? So you and those who make your boats dont pay moorage, insurance, for repairs, for sails, etc? Well, that is a different discussion which I am HAPPY to discuss with you. But as far as it pertains to this conversation, the decisions for each one of those are personal decisions that is irrelevant to the boat. You can put a $350 sail on a bene and go without insurance on them too, you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
If I spend the cost of a new mainsail, and it forces me to put off sailing for the winter, and the head start the difference would have given me, will I end up having covered more gound than if I had bought the slower used sail, and got a years head start? Not a chance!
On that, we agree. But again, it is irrelevant to the boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
One 36, cruising in company with a 35 ft Beneteau, leaving port at the same time, was always arriving at his destination way ahead of the Benny, despite being heavily loaded.
That Bene owner obviously graduated from the same sailing school as your friend who raced them. All those rope thingies get complicated. I know. See above how to fix this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I arrived in Auckland with a battened mainsail, falling apart around the batten pockets.. Getting rid of the battens let me sail another 3,000 miles, in squally conditions , without popping a stitch. And you say I could have done the same without doing a thing to the falling apart sail, or eliminating that which was causing it to fall apart?
Ya, sure!
Why not have a sailmaker to your boat, have them measure and cut a sail specifically for your boat, make it heavy cloth, double around the battens, several reinforced reefs sewn in, reinforced clew etc, and work with you to maximize the displacement and type of sailing you do? I know, you can't get this at the flea market for $350, but as you can tell from your trip to Auckland, you get what you pay for. I am not criticizing your decision not to pay what would be a multi-thousand dollar sail. You are the 'go-now and make it work' type of guy. I like that, honestly. I respect it. But don't critique others who have the funds and interest in maximizing their sailing performance. It is a sailboat after all, and there is a reason we have moved from wooden square-riggers of the 1700s to some boats which are quite candidly highly engineered, screaming machines that blow BOTH of our socks off.

Now let me say in all of this again, as my point does not seem to come through to you: I like what you do. You have some good ideas. Your design does, and should, appeal to many people. I have no problem with that, nor do I have an issue with your attitude of 'go now, go cheap'. You and I agree on many things and I respect what you do. I just don't respect how you do it. Instead of proclaiming that everyone who does not buy a boat like yours is gullible, or decrying the many benefits of production boats (or any fiberglass boats) and throwing out many things as facts which are simply untrue, you would be much better served realizing that your boat fits a certain segment of the sailing population. It is the right boat for them. Your boats have many positives, as all steel boats do. You are NOT the right boat for everyone and others are well served to consider other options. No problem. Other boats have many positives too.

You see, on all of that, we would agree.

Respectfully,

Brian
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  #459  
Old 05-31-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Now wait just a cotton picking minute!
I'll say it one more time. That 28' aluminum boat Brent claims he saw is my design is NOT my design. Is that clear? I would not forget a custom 28'er built in alu. This mythical
28' Perry alu boat is a figment of Brent's imagination conjured up to bolster his argument. If the boat ever did exist I can assure you I did not design it. Another crock of BS.

Argue all you want Brent but please do not "invent" a role for me to play in your arguments. That's where your credibility dies.

There was once a bricklayer from Baltimore who did a solo circumnavigation in his
Baba 30. Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.
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  #460  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I'm not saying mine is the right design for someone who wants to throw away a lot of money for an inferior product. In fact is is definitely the wrong boat for someone who wants to do that.
The aluminim 28 footer was a boat called Carmela which I was told was a Perry design.It is somewhere in Victoria, I dont know exactly were.
When one of my 36 footers, the first one I built, pounded for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja for 16 days and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf,with no significant dammage, I know it is stronger than a fibreglass boat ,which would have broken up in the first few hours. When she T-boned a CBC barge in front of gramas pub in Gibsons at hull speed, with zero damage, I know she is strong.
When one did a single season passage thru the NW passage, with zero damage, I know it is strong. When one pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf ,then was puled back across the same reef with zero damage, then later collided with a freighter in Gibralter with no significant damage, I know it is strong. Try those tricks in a Benny. See how significant your numbers jugling is.
Sure you can rig a Benny with cheap sails after spending a huge amount on the bare boat.
I only help the owner get the shell and steel work done. The kind of finish they do from that point on is up to them Those who have gone yachty have always regreted such a waste of time and money, which should have been spent on cruising, and things that matter.
The paint job on mmy current boat is 29 years old and the only maintenance I've done on it is touch up the chipoed parts, the rest is as good as the day I put it on. I do an houror two a year maintenace on my paint job. Any time tyo se rusting in th e middle iof aflat surface the paint was n ever thich k enouhg or th esateel not clean enough.
No, a singe coat of tremclad doesnt work . I initially put 30 gallons of epoxy on my boat. The thicker the better. Too thin a paint job is the main cause of maintenace problems on steel boats, a problem which is easily avoided. To thin a paint job is often motivated by seeking the yachty look. Thick paint works better ,but usually does look rougher. Thats a matter of priorities.
Most paint chipping occurs mostly on outside corners which, for that reason, should all be trimmed with stainless, reducing paint job maintenance by up to 80%..
I headed out on my first pacific crossing at the ripe old age of 23, singlehanded. Do I wish I had waited until I was as old as the other old farts out there, who had insisted on the expensive way? Not a chance! I have cruised 11 months a year since my mid 20s. Do I wish I had cruised only three weeks a year so I could afford expensive gear? Not a chance!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 05-31-2013 at 06:51 PM.
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