Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 48 - SailNet Community
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post #471 of 1155 Old 06-01-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Getting away from the Steel/FRP Bene vs the world of sailboats discussion...for a minute.

A classic 1934 Atkin design wood hull double ender pulled into the anchorage in Ao Chalong, Phuket a few days ago....Sailed from Tanzania via the Seychelles, Maldives. fast passage from the Maldives to here in 12 days..

Seems to me it is more about the man behind the wheel/tiller then the absolute newness/buiding material/designer, budget, gee whiz gear etc.

Nobody out here seems to really care what kind of boat your on..well, except for the catamaran dweebs.
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post #472 of 1155 Old 06-01-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Yeah, I agree. The right guy with the right skills can make just about any boat work for offshore cruising. There is far too much diversity of type out there to try and reduce it down to any one design or build approach.
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post #473 of 1155 Old 06-01-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I actually loved that C27. No way I would have taken it off-shore, but it was a fantastic boat to sail. Strong, fast, once outpointed a Bene First in a race (no joke), and was really fun to sail.

As for my off-shore experience, I only have maybe 1500 miles of off-shore racing and returns (on a Pearson 365 and on a Pacific Seacraft 37) - absolutely none in a boat I've built with my own hands, and absolutely none in a steel boat.

But I AM a very informed customer. So that actually makes me an expert if you think about it. I'm the audience you're preaching to.

As an informed customer, if you could bring yourself to just talk about your boats without all the "Anything Else is Crap for Sheeple" hyperbole, I could throw you a credibility bone (and actually have in the past).

That said, you should completely ignore me and answer the guys above that actually know. If you can convince them - you certainly don't need to convince the likes of me.

I like you Brent. Just be real.
We met a young couple a week ago, Eddie and Leah. They came screaming into Allan's Cay under full sail, with their engine inoperable at the time. They dropped the hook, and we had a chat. They had sailed that C-27 from the Chesapeak to the Bahamas! I am humbled... They are headed back now. Cool!

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post #474 of 1155 Old 06-01-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Wolf:
The fact that your mast is wood rather than aluminum should make no differnce in the fore and aft stiffness. The problem is your mast is undersized in the fore and aft dimension. If your mast were physically larger fore and aft or the side panels of the laminated spar were thicker the mast would be stiffer. This is measured in "moments of inertia" and that measurement involves the dimensions of the spar and the material used. If your present spar was designed for the old fractional rig it is on the light side for the masthead conversion. You are now compensating for this by using the runers. That is not unusual. Some people like a fexible spar so they can use mast bend to change mainsail shape. The more you bend your mast the flatter your mainsail.

But you often comment about "camber" in your mast. This is what is known as "mast bend" not camber. It may be present in your rig due to the top of the mast being too light. Your "longest unsupported panel" is too big for your spar section. That's OK so long as you use the runners to try to keep the mast in column by reducing the longest unsupported panel. You coud also fit some jumper struts and jumper stays at the hounds. This would hep pull the masthead back and keep the mast in column. But at the same time the jumpers might interfere with your headsails. In the old days jumper struts were very common on rigs like yours.

Having a "noodle" for a mast is ok and on some boats is seen as beneficial. The IOR boats of the 70's often had very bendy rigs. But today we tend to go with a more rigid spar. It means you don't have to be concerned about mast bend so much.

Hope this helps you understand what you have.

L. Francis Herrshoff saw rig design as pure art. Norman Skene saw rig design as pure engineering.
The running backs were original equipment (though they were moved down a few feet after the fixed backstay was added to 10' from mast head/2' above intermediate and head stay), the fixed backsatay came later, the mast is round. The original rig specifically called for not having jumpers. The mast bend is present with out any tension on the stays and the mast is quite flexible. I don't like to "play" with the adjustments, just when I find what works best for me set it and keep it.
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post #475 of 1155 Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

We can talk about the elements of rig design if you like. I could do a short primer on how to design a rig. You decide.

Wolf:
You have a round mast. That was common back in the old days and often the spar was a solid, tapered pole. Atkin's designs in the Ideal series are typically rigged like that. But with a box section laminated spruce spar you can have longer fore and aft panels
(sides) of the spar and shorter athwartships panels (front and back) This is what you need because the fore and aft moments greatly exceed the athwartships moments due to the simple fact that you have more shrouds than you have backstays anf forestays. So the fact that you have a round spar means the stick is either way to big for the athwartships min required moments or it's way too small for the fore and aft min required moments. It can't be ideal for both. Based on what you tell me about your mast bend situation I would deduce that the forea and aft moms are a bit on the anemic side on your mast.

For the record:
I think the stay that goes to the masthead is the "headstay" it goes to the head of the mast.
I think the inner for and aft stay is called the "forestay" because it's forward of the mast.

You may think different and you might be right but it would simplify things and help communication if we could agree on some terminology.

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Last edited by bobperry; 06-02-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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post #476 of 1155 Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat



I kind of hated the batten-less mainsail Stoboom that came with the Cal but it was brand new and other than the leach tension Jeff talks about it functions well for us

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post #477 of 1155 Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Tom:
hy is the main battenless? Just prior owner's choice?
With the Leisure Furl and Schaefer systems you can have battens.

You look well shortened down in that pic but I don't see any wite caps. Were you "practicing"?

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob

I think we took the picture 3 years ago as it took a long time to transition from J24 behavior to Cal 29 battle wagon

It spends most of its time all the way out now we understand what it takes to balance the helm on the 29 as dragging the rudder sideways was just no fun

It was the first generation unit and they talked my friend Uncle Joe into it pretty sure it had about 3 hours on when i took over the boat

The boom has a really narrow slot with no space for battens and the extrusion can just barely hold the sail

It was pretty windy that day gusting above 25 knots were just inside now and some days i don't feel the need to work that hard and we were still doing a steady 6 knots

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post #479 of 1155 Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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For the record:
I think the stay that goes to the masthead is the "headstay" it goes to the head of the mast.
I think the inner for and aft stay is called the "forestay" because it's forward of the mast.

You may think different and you might be right but it would simplify things and help communication if we could agree on some terminology.
I think the inner/lower stays on the sides of the mast are the forsetays.... because there are fore of them on the boat.

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post #480 of 1155 Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Tom:
That is one of my complaints with some in boom systems, i.e. the boom is undersized for the bulk of the sail. I agree with you on dragging the rudder sideway. Like sailing with the emergency brake on.

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