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  #481  
Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
We can talk about the elements of rig design if you like. I could do a short primer on how to design a rig. You decide.

Wolf:
You have a round mast. That was common back in the old days and often the spar was a solid, tapered pole. Atkin's designs in the Ideal series are typically rigged like that. But with a box section laminated spruce spar you can have longer fore and aft panels
(sides) of the spar and shorter athwartships panels (front and back) This is what you need because the fore and aft moments greatly exceed the athwartships moments due to the simple fact that you have more shrouds than you have backstays anf forestays. So the fact that you have a round spar means the stick is either way to big for the athwartships min required moments or it's way too small for the fore and aft min required moments. It can't be ideal for both. Based on what you tell me about your mast bend situation I would deduce that the forea and aft moms are a bit on the anemic side on your mast.

For the record:
I think the stay that goes to the masthead is the "headstay" it goes to the head of the mast.
I think the inner for and aft stay is called the "forestay" because it's forward of the mast.

You may think different and you might be right but it would simplify things and help communication if we could agree on some terminology.
I have seen three applications for running backs [1] boats with booms to long to allow a fixed backstay [2] to tweak mast bend/sail shape and [3] to counter the effect of a forestay in heavy weather "pumping".
Rigging consists of headstay, forestay, lowers (1' forward of mast), intermediates (3' aft of mast terminating at forestay), running backs (terminating 2' above forestay) and cap shrouds, backstay. If you draw the connection points around the edge of the boat from above it appears all rigging is pretty evenly distributed.
I was using the term William Atkin used in a description of this boat topmast stay (which if this were not a knock about would have started at the masthead and terminated at the end of the bowsprit) and the head stay which starts at the stemhead and goes terminates 2/3 the way up the mast.
Mast construction was three layers of wood laid on top of each other, glued and shaped,the mast bend is from a bend built into the mast in manufacture...the flex is something different, and to accomplish that it is a combination of the overall tuning, lowers pull forward while intermediates pull back (put it where I want it and leave it), runners were not intended to tweek mast bend/sail shape, rather to give a better angle of pull than a backstay in a boat that had a boom too long to accommodate a backstay anyway.



Mast measures 6" diameter at the deck, the most significant taper is in the top few feet of the mast...The builder did not have a need to whittle off a few ounces of wood for racing, his intended use as was that of all future owners was ocean cruising. Alot of the aspects of the boat are over built, I would think laminated Sitka Spruce (probably using Resourcenol), being stronger than a solid spar would be one of those.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-02-2013 at 03:58 PM.
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  #482  
Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by RTB View Post
We met a young couple a week ago, Eddie and Leah. They came screaming into Allan's Cay under full sail, with their engine inoperable at the time. They dropped the hook, and we had a chat. They had sailed that C-27 from the Chesapeak to the Bahamas! I am humbled... They are headed back now. Cool!

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Yeah, just to clarify, I meant I wouldn't have taken the C27 I owned off-shore (not that I wouldn't take a C27 off-shore). Good sailors have taken those boats all over the world.
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  #483  
Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
I agree with you. A lam spruce spar would be a far stronger spar than a solid fir pole.

But in your pic I am not seeing the bend you describe. It looks straight to me. I also don't see the spar in the pic as being round but you said your mast was "round", "the mast is round.". You are confusing me.

It wasn't totally unusual to laminate bend into the mast back in those days.
You love this part: They did it as a way to add sail area without paying for it under the racing measurment rule. Many years later it was done again on some America's Cup boats.

If the forward most stay goes to the head of the mast I call it the headstay because that makes sense and I don't give a rat's patootey what Atkin called it. If, in his day, there was no forward stay going to the masthead I think it would be OK to call the forward stay the "headstay". I don't think it's very important to pursue this discussion on terminology. Unfortunately old Bil isn't here to explain his use of the terms. I'd sure like to hear it. I'd like to have a nice, long chat with him about a number of things.
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  #484  
Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wolf:
I agree with you. A lam spruce spar would be a far stronger spar than a solid fir pole.

But in your pic I am not seeing the bend you describe. It looks straight to me. I also don't see the spar in the pic as being round but you said your mast was "round", "the mast is round.". You are confusing me.

It wasn't totally unusual to laminate bend into the mast back in those days.
You love this part: They did it as a way to add sail area without paying for it under the racing measurment rule. Many years later it was done again on some America's Cup boats.

If the forward most stay goes to the head of the mast I call it the headstay because that makes sense and I don't give a rat's patootey what Atkin called it. If, in his day, there was no forward stay going to the masthead I think it would be OK to call the forward stay the "headstay". I don't think it's very important to pursue this discussion on terminology. Unfortunately old Bil isn't here to explain his use of the terms. I'd sure like to hear it. I'd like to have a nice, long chat with him about a number of things.

I just said the reason I used those terms was because of what Atkin said, not that he was right. There is alot of terminology about my boat that is either different and/or doesn't apply to modern boats. According to the original sailplan the only sail to be flown on the headstay was an occasional topsail jib and the working jib was to be flown on the forestay.
The mast is Sitka Spruce which I believe is also strong than fir.That is the builder photo, before he did anything to it, and the perspective might not have shown any bend he put into it, also not taking into account a bend put into it after 40 years of having a bend tuned into it (though from accounts of earlier owners it has always had a bend).

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-02-2013 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 06-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
The mast is Sitka Spruce which I believe is also strong than fir.That is the builder photo, before he did anything to it, and the perspective might not have shown any bend he put into it, also not taking into account a bend put into it after 40 years of having a bend tuned into it (though from accounts of earlier owners it has always had a bend).
FWIW, if Atkin designed it (or any other NA for that matter), there should have been a plan drawn up that would explain exactly what was done where and how it was to be built.

For example, here's the plan of my old mast, boom and spin pole:

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Last edited by Classic30; 06-02-2013 at 10:50 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

What one NA called something 75 years ago could quite possibly differ from what someone now a days would call something it. In the description published "this style of rig was always termed a knockabout; and is still a knockabout (not a sloop). Stem-head sloop also properly describes this type of rig, if there are two headsails and no bowsprit.", "...It will be observed that only two shrouds each side adorn the design; one headstay and one topmast stay...." That is why I referred to what I have been told should be referred to as a head stay as a topmast stay and a forestay as a headstay.
Because the term knockabout is no longer used then I will update my other terminology and refer to the topmast stay as a head stay and the head stay as a forestay.
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  #487  
Old 06-03-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I prefer Meds Forestay or some such thing to describe the shrouds, as there are four of them, must be a forestay.........

Or does this nonsensical use of terms, equal my the wording on the doors of my old crew cab pickup. My name on drivers door, ex wifes name on passenger, and ""four" the kids" on the back doors!?!?!?!?! not sure why I speeled "FOUR" that way, altho dan, rich KT and Kara, ie my kids might know the answer. I sure as hell do not! it's certainly not Winstons fault!

I'm still trying to figure out captn fattys always have a reef in the main while sailing, even in the doldrums............hmmmmmmm........seems easier to buy or have a mainsail that is too small to begin with! vs forcing the fact! There is nothing wrong with reefing mind you when the wind is up! Like the pic below, altho even with a double reef in, I could probably get away with JUST the jib or a reefed main. THe jib is generally faster in these conditions. Or a smaller jib would work too, like maybe a storm jib or somethin inbetween the 110 and storm jib. This was a wicked race a few years back, a couple of knockdowns, ripped sails........general fun in a salish sea gale!LOLOL




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Old 06-03-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I have seen three applications for running backs [1] boats with booms to long to allow a fixed backstay [2] to tweak mast bend/sail shape and [3] to counter the effect of a forestay in heavy weather "pumping".
Rigging consists of headstay, forestay, lowers (1' forward of mast), intermediates (3' aft of mast terminating at forestay), running backs (terminating 2' above forestay) and cap shrouds, backstay. If you draw the connection points around the edge of the boat from above it appears all rigging is pretty evenly distributed.
I was using the term William Atkin used in a description of this boat topmast stay (which if this were not a knock about would have started at the masthead and terminated at the end of the bowsprit) and the head stay which starts at the stemhead and goes terminates 2/3 the way up the mast.
Mast construction was three layers of wood laid on top of each other, glued and shaped,the mast bend is from a bend built into the mast in manufacture...the flex is something different, and to accomplish that it is a combination of the overall tuning, lowers pull forward while intermediates pull back (put it where I want it and leave it), runners were not intended to tweek mast bend/sail shape, rather to give a better angle of pull than a backstay in a boat that had a boom too long to accommodate a backstay anyway.



Mast measures 6" diameter at the deck, the most significant taper is in the top few feet of the mast...The builder did not have a need to whittle off a few ounces of wood for racing, his intended use as was that of all future owners was ocean cruising. Alot of the aspects of the boat are over built, I would think laminated Sitka Spruce (probably using Resourcenol), being stronger than a solid spar would be one of those.
Refurbishing one of Bob's Sitka Spruce Sticks in Krabbi, Thailand last month.
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  #489  
Old 06-03-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

As far as my sails the main is old and cut for ocean cruising, no battens or roach w/two reefs. A wide assortment of old and/or second hand headsails most of which for one reason or another don't fit as well as they could. All things considered the boat does pretty well. As I am a poor sailor my plan is to have "retired" racing sails altered for my application. Before then I have to find out what sails and or combination of sails would work best for me.
I can't change my hull or my mast, my boom or any part of my rigging......so have to figure out what would be best with what I've got.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-03-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Sitka spruce is a lot tougher and more felexible; les brittle . Thinly cut you can almost tie knots in it. I remember as a kid, building a house with my dad . Fir tended to crack where you drove nails in , spruce , no way!
Spruce is far less prone to checking, and if it does, the checks are tiny
My mast is a single piece of bare, air dried sitka spruce, 40 ft long 4x6 inches no glue , only three knots the size of your little finger nail in it. Been up there 29 years, no problems.
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