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post #501 of 1155 Old 06-03-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Faster:
Ok, that's the funny part. This guy had plenty of money and wanted a new boat but he loved his old boat. I would eventually design him a new custom boat a few years later. He just wanted to do something to upgrade his Cheoy Lee, give it a present.

He brought the boat from the East Coast to the PNW and went around Van Isle. I talked to him later. I asked him what differences did he feel with the new carbon rig. He said, he couldn't really tell the difference. $65,000 worth of carbon sticks and he couldn't tell the difference.

Oh well.
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post #502 of 1155 Old 06-03-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Mast weight: My 40'-ish timber mast is light enough to be carried by two people... the same alloy spar can be carried by two people... so there might be a few kilos either way, but not much in the scheme of things.

When opting for something lighter again (eg. carbon mast) people often forget how much the rigging weighs - sometimes it's more than the mast.

When the owner of a well-known 1905 timber-masted gentleman's topsail cutter over here, opted to change the rigging from rusty stainless to the latest in grey plastic (which actually didn't look all that diffrent from gal wire at a distance) he, and I and a fair few others, were amazed to discover the entire of his new high-tech standing rigging weighed just a little less than his old forestay..

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post #503 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Hart:
I make it my business to know that stuff. I have one client now for a new 60'er where we have looked at "synthetic" or Aramid, PBO rigging. No decision on it yet. PBO is kind of "old" now. There are newer fibers available. So little time. So much technology to digest.

My rule of thumb is that a carbon fiber mast will save you half the weight of the alu extrusion. Wire rigging weight is on top of that. Still with the Cheoy Lee, a heavy, big motor sailer, I was expecting some change I the feel of the motion at least if not a real change in feel of stability. But I was wrong. Mind you I'm only going by the owner's comments and I did not sail the boat before and after myself although I have sailed that model on a couple of occasions. I have a hard time believing there was not some noticable change. I don't mind being wrong. I do mind not knowing.

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Last edited by bobperry; 06-04-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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post #504 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob, perhaps he wasn't experienced enough to notice and too embarrased to admit it?

I imagine a big, heavy, motorsailer like a Cheoy Lee would need a decent amount of wind to push it along and suppose that resulting wave action could, maybe, mask any obvious effect of weight reduction aloft to someone not thinking about it..

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post #505 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Hart:
No, this owner has done a lot of sailing including racing and had owned that boat for years prior to the change. It's actually a very good boat, a little shy on draft but it sails quite well. I do try hard you know. I'm a bit puzzled but he came back for a new custom design that he now loves so I have no complaints.

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post #506 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I know a LOT more about bicycles than boats as i have designed and produced some very good ones in a high tech steel called NIVACROM which is pretty much at the pinnacle of bicycle tubing

There is nothing more funny than fairly overweight people insisting on having a super expensive carbon bicycle especially when you consider that the carbon frame could be 2.5 pounds and the Steel with a NICE PAINT job 4 pounds
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post #507 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I can't change what I have for a hull (and if you didn't realize I was happy with what I had then you haven't been paying attention), I can't change my mast and most changes possible to the rig have been done anyway. This leaves the only changes possible to the boat from a performance point of view, leave propeller (which isn't worth the effort to tinker with) and sails.....I have already mentioned I have decided to seek out "retired" racing sails and have them altered to fit.
As far as the main: 37' luff and 15' boom to work with (2' clearance between clue and backstay 1' clearance between head and backstay) one thought that crossed my mind was shortening the foot a tad but with the use of long battens making the leach at the clue almost vertical as far as I can.
The boat will be set up to be able to fly multiple headsails (such as large Yankee and 110 Genny combination) with headstay of 40' running parallel to forestay of 25' (terminating 2/3 up the mast and 4' back from stem).
I have two pairs of jib winches (23' and 25' from stem). The mast is 13' from the stem (a J measurement of 47%). Unlike the previous discussions...this is one that I can actually apply and am seriously open to suggestions.
The sails I have work pretty well considering the ones that where actually made for the boat and/or fit the boat are a old any other sail are mismatched and a slight variation would work better.

As per the carbon fiber discussion....some things amount of price increase is way out of proportion to the amount of performance increase. For several different reasons some old designs actually work well, sometimes new stuff added to old stuff doesn't always mesh and of course some things perform like ****** and always will, not matter how much high tech BS you dump into it.

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post #508 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
I was never suggesting CF spare for your boat. That would be interesting but silly.
But that doesn't mean we can't talk bout CF spars. We just need some real perspective.
If you read my post on my experience with the old boat and it's switch to CF spars that was the point I was trying to make.

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post #509 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob-
wrt not knowing just how much effect a cf spar has, versus aluminum, and having to take the owner's word on it...
If you know the weight of the spars (cf/vs/alu) and you already presumably have some numbers for the mass, distribution, etc. of the hull and keel and all, can't you run some numbers in one a them new computer things, to see just how much the small change in mass above deck will affect the way the boat rocks in different sea states?

Pardon me for not using all the correct technical terms, but I'm not an NA.
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post #510 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Hello:
Your terminology is just fine.
In a word, no. You can run a new VPP with the adjusted VCG and that will give you the new stability and speed data but one of the Achiles Heels of the VPP is that it does not factor in waves. I suspect that an office like J/V or Farr may have a proproetary VPP that might allow wave data to be input but I've never heard of any office having it. That is also the reason that the VPP can't simulate surfing conditions to predict when a boat might break free and plane or semi-plane.

However, in some test tanks you can tow a model in different seas to test the effect of a change in VCG. The problem in a towing tank is that you tow a scale model but you can;t scale down the way waves behave. That was the problem behind the classic tank error that lead to the infamous MARINER 12m stern. The model looked fine in the tank. The real boat did not look so fine in the bay.

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