Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 52 - SailNet Community
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post #511 of 1155 Old 06-04-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Wolf:
I was never suggesting CF spare for your boat. That would be interesting but silly.
But that doesn't mean we can't talk bout CF spars. We just need some real perspective.
If you read my post on my experience with the old boat and it's switch to CF spars that was the point I was trying to make.
I know you were not suggesting CF for my boat...I was just commenting on what you had said about it. I was just mentioning some of the reasons why CF might not work and/or be worth the investment for an older boat....yes under some applications it works...and some it doesn't. You have made me realize that I can make a significant performance difference to my boat (with in my budget)through the use of sails. I liked my father's Freedom 33, that is the only application of carbon fiber on a boat that I personally have had anything to do with (that actually made a difference)
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post #512 of 1155 Old 06-05-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Seeing as you asked...

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
...As far as the main: 37' luff and 15' boom to work with (2' clearance between clue and backstay 1' clearance between head and backstay) one thought that crossed my mind was shortening the foot a tad but with the use of long battens making the leach at the clue almost vertical as far as I can.
AIUThings all you'd be acheiving is a reduction in sail area, since you're restricted in adding the reduced sail area somewhere else (up high) by your backstay. Sure, the main might be a 'more efficient' shape - or something - but even full-length battens won't make up the loss, especially if it's old and stretched.

Hypothetically, you could get a shorter-footed fully-battened main made up with a square top and ditch your backstay altogether.. but that's serious-racer territory.

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"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
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post #513 of 1155 Old 06-05-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

bob, I thought vpp was mainly concerned with predicting boatspeed (velocity) rather than showing things like roll, pitch, and yaw moment and period. VPP goes into those areas as well?
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post #514 of 1155 Old 06-05-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Hello:
No. You are corrct. The VPP program that almost all of us use covers boat speed, VMG, heel angle and how much you need to depower the rig to maintain optimum speed in a specific wind range. If you look at the tabular print out rather than a simple polar diagram there is a lot of useful information there. TWS, AWS, AWA and TWA.
The motion of the boat is not covered. For me the most important columns are boat speed, VMG and heel angle with VMG being the real indication of what the boat is doing.

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post #515 of 1155 Old 06-05-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

The suggestion I made about the main, the total sail area loss by loosing that little corner of the foot would be insignificant raw sail area, some of which would be gained back in a more efficient location and on top of that the cut of sail would be far more efficient.

I am already working on a more efficient sheeting system for the main.

Unfortunately all I have to work with is MS paint, but here is a very rough idea of what I was talking about along with new headstay position and winches.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-05-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf, You really do not need to take that divot out of your mainsail to makle it work with roach and some full length battens. First of all, the original drawing already had a boom which was longer than your boom. But also even if the leech of the sail 'ticked the backstay' it would not increase wear noticibly nor would it hang up. The reality is that the battens are flexible enough that even a sail which has a 'planform' that overlaps by a few inches the backstay, has a flying shape that is well inside the stay, and too leeward. My mainsail overlaps my backstay by nearly 8" but with any breeze at all, it does not even touch the backstay on tacks and jibes.

But at some level, you are way over thinking all of this. When you can afford to buy a mainsail, even a used mainsail, it will still need to be cut to your boat. Your mastbend, and rig configuration would not be all that close to the modern boat where that used sail is likely to come from.

You will need a sailmaker to 'recut' the sail to fit and before that happens you will want a sailmaker to measure boat and the sail on the boat. More than likely they will then need to recut the luff and foot to make the sail fit properly (Even if it appeared to be the correct length when the sail is measured sitting on the loft floor.) And a good experienced sailmaker will be able to advise you on all of this at that time.

Jeff


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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

As to the design process that has been going on in the background: for the past few weeks, when I haven't been sailing or trying to get work done, I have have, with Bob Perry's kind assistence, guidance and forebearance, been developing an interior layout for 'my version' of the boat that has been evolving within this thread. Here is that interior layout:





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post #518 of 1155 Old 06-05-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Wolf, You really do not need to take that divot out of your mainsail to makle it work with roach and some full length battens. First of all, the original drawing already had a boom which was longer than your boom. But also even if the leech of the sail 'ticked the backstay' it would not increase wear noticibly nor would it hang up. The reality is that the battens are flexible enough that even a sail which has a 'planform' that overlaps by a few inches the backstay, has a flying shape that is well inside the stay, and too leeward. My mainsail overlaps my backstay by nearly 8" but with any breeze at all, it does not even touch the backstay on tacks and jibes.

But at some level, you are way over thinking all of this. When you can afford to buy a mainsail, even a used mainsail, it will still need to be cut to your boat. Your mastbend, and rig configuration would not be all that close to the modern boat where that used sail is likely to come from.

You will need a sailmaker to 'recut' the sail to fit and before that happens you will want a sailmaker to measure boat and the sail on the boat. More than likely they will then need to recut the luff and foot to make the sail fit properly (Even if it appeared to be the correct length when the sail is measured sitting on the loft floor.) And a good experienced sailmaker will be able to advise you on all of this at that time.

Jeff
I realize that finding a sail...any sail.. the same size as my main (not to mention the mast bend) just will not happen and planned on having one re-cut. The latest drawing does have the boom length adjusted, and it was just an idea I was toying with. That most recent drawing also shows the new headstay position as well as new winch locations. And yes my mast bend is not as extreme as the Etchels here in the marina....it is noticeable though also in addition to the bend there is a slight rake 1/4" difference at deck masthead is 40' higher...trying to do the math gives me a headache.

On another thread about full vs no battens someone mentioned how a sailmaker talked him into having a roach that overlapped the back stay a tad "racing sailors do it all the time"" each time he tacked as the battens hit the backstay it would make his whole boat shudder....he was told there was something he could buy from the sail makers to make it slide more easily...but still ended up having his sail recut.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf,

For the past 25 years, I have owned boats which had the leech of the mainsail cut to overlap the backstay. Except for one overly aggressive mainsail on my Laser 28, I never have experienced anything vaguely like what this guy was describing. In the case of my Laser 28 mainsail it lapped by the more than a foot near the second batten, which was also very stiff to support the very full roach of that sail. While that much overlap was a bot too much and a nuisance in light air since the backstay had to be flicked over the battens, I have not experienced a boat jarring experience with the more modest overlap that I normally have on my boats. I do have chafe material on the end of my batten pockets so they do not get beat up hitting the stay. It is in good shape after nearly 5 years of hard use.

I think that you can see in this shot that as soon as the sail gets any wind in it, it sags away from the stay.



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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I suspect that you think that I am just a modern boat guy who does not understand traditional wooden boats. While I currently own relatively modern boats, and have for a number of years, I have not always owned modern designs. Bob suggested that you might appreciate seeing these two boats that I previously owned and restored.
Indian: 1939 Stadel Pilot cutter






Diana: 1949 Finnish built Folkboat
After

Before

Dad and I and the new rudder-
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-06-2013 at 08:12 AM.
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