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  #531  
Old 06-06-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
As to the design process that has been going on in the background: for the past few weeks, when I haven't been sailing or trying to get work done, I have have, with Bob Perry's kind assistence, guidance and forebearance, been developing an interior layout for 'my version' of the boat that has been evolving within this thread. Here is that interior layout:



Lookin' lovely..... but where's the cavernous aft cabin that's a "Must" these days??

Seriously, somebody needs to build this baby.. wish it were me. Curious as to how the keel support (when extended) will be engineered...
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  #532  
Old 06-06-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Lookin' lovely..... but where's the cavernous aft cabin that's a "Must" these days??

Seriously, somebody needs to build this baby.. wish it were me. Curious as to how the keel support (when extended) will be engineered...

Ron,

I have never been a big fan of the whole cavernous aft cabin thing. In reality, I would expect to mostly cruise single-handed or with my wife, and perhaps occasionally have another couple along. On my version, the quarter berth would divide on the centerline and hinge up out of the way for storage bins and a work area.

If I wanted to cruise with another couple, I would probably include a louvered door that would provide some privacy for changing clothes. That door would occur at the bulkhead just aft of the stove, and that builkhead would need to move forward from where it is currently shown so there was some floor space with headroom. The small aftermost portlight would provide ventilation for that compartment, as could a portlight in the transom or footwell.

The keel support when lowered works this way. As I view the design, the keel itself would have three sections. The lowest section would be cast lead and would be the ballast. Its shown with the dark shading. Above that would be a stainless steel or monel weldment in the shape of the foil and it would be long enough that when the board is fully lowered it would extend approx. 9" into the bottom of the trunk. Within that weldment would be two large stainless steel tubes and these extend from the bottom of the weldment (from the top of the lead casting) to approximately 4 feet above the top of the foil shaped portion of the weldment. These tubes effectively extend a cantilever beyond the foil shaped portion of the keel. The tubes slide (telescope) inside a larger tube which extends from the top of the trunk (table top height) to the underside of the deck above. The table is shaped as it to allow the trunk to be buttressed with large knees on either side of the trunk, which will extend to the top of the trunk and stiffen the point at which the bottom of the outer tubes are bolted. If structural calcs showed it did not work to have glassed in knees (because they create a hinge point at the top of the trunk) then the vertical s.s. tubes would also be a weldment with the legs of that weldment on either side of the trunk extending to longitundinal and transverse frames within the bilge.That would make a continulous stiff structure from the bilge framing to the cabin top.

The aft lower corner and the forward upper corner of the trunk would be heavily reinforced to absorb an impact, and as I mentioned the other day, there would also be rollers mounted on impact absorbing blocks at the bottom of the trunk to allow the board to be raised under a little pressure.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-06-2013 at 04:55 PM. Reason: confusing syntax
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  #533  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Hartley,

You asked about how 'Indian' sailed. A little over a year ago, someone was thinking of buying the old girl from her then current owner and he wrote to me about her. Here is the write up on her that I wrote for him. I tells the whole story.

Indian was constructed by Joel Johnson for a retired ship's captain in 1939, just before the 1939 motor boat act, the first attempt to regulate engine and electrical safety. This meant that there was a total disregard for modern safety standards. The main power switch was a large knife switch mounted right above the engine. The ignition switch was also a knife switch located above the engine. The fuel tank was copper and located in the cockpit. It was a very clever installation which if it leaked would send the gasoline down the scuppers or through the scabbard type shifter located in the cockpit sole just above the transmission.

'Indian' was built simply; white cedar planking over white oak framing. These boats were designed for mahogany planking and internal ballast, neither of which did she have when we owned her, so her planking was a little lighter than the original design and which might partially mitigate the added weight of the sheathing.

On the other hand, as she was built, she was very tender (way too tender as the prior owner described it) and so a previous owner had added an iron or lead shoe beneath her keel which gave her a little more stability.

The glass sheathing was added to the boat by the time we owned her and was the result of a host of reasons. 'Indian' was iron fastened. The combination of iron fastenings in oak frames only has a limited lifespan and 'Indian's' fastenings were well past their "use by" date. Her butt blocks would literally fall off and show up in the bilge.

The story about the glass work that we were told is that a young fiberglass boat builder bought her and fiberglassed her. He wanted to keep Indian as his boat but also use her hull as a plug to build fiberglass versions. The story was that the layup was heavy polyester resin and fiberglass cloth intended to be strong enough to become her hull. While we owned her the hull was tight and stiff and we never saw signs of movement.

But, with the added ballast shoe and the glass sheathing she was clearly way over her design weight. Measurements from her rail to her waterline, and travelift weight measurements, suggested that she was literally 1000's of pounds, if not tons over her design weight.

Later, I heard that a subsequent owner rebuilt her decks, maybe replaced her sheathing, and added a new diesel engine instead of the lovely little Universal Blue Jacket twin cyl. gas engine she was built with. Depending on how all that was done, that could be either new net added weight, or net weight loss.

When we owned her, her mast was in great shape, but the booms were nearly shot. I also heard they replaced the bowsprit and king post but after talking to Howard Chappelle and George Stadel (a great story) about the installation, I can't imagine how that was actually done since the cranse iron was actually made by a blacksmith after it was passed through the stem and its fastenings are concealed behind the stem apron.

Which brings me to how she sails. First, this is not a modern boat. In any comparison with a modern design, she would be considered, slow, wet, cramped, rolly and pitchy, makes gobs of leeway, does not point very high and had a wicked weather helm when the breeze came up and you had too much canavs. She was at her best in 10-12 knots of breeze, above or below that, not so much.

Below 10-12 knots she sailed well in that she kept moving if you threw up enough sail, and she did not spin in circles like some lesser designs when the wind got in the 2-5 knot range.

In heavy air, she could be a handful. You needed to get rid of the genoa and change down to the jib-topsail, and perhaps reef early. (The partially reefed roller furling that a later owner added made no sense on this boat.) In heavy air, you could not sail her with the just staysail jib and mainsail (without reefing the main) without having massive weather helm. Reefing shorthanded was a bit of a pain when we owned the boat, but it was doable. You had to drop the boom onto the gallows and tie in the reef. Very old school stuff.

Her worst trait was her hobby horsing. Like most traditional, small, keel boats, she would hobbyhorse herself to a stop in chop. You got used to it, but it was frustrating watching smaller trailerable boats shoot past you in a decent breeze, seemingly unaffected by the waves that had stopped you dead.

I still have a file with pictures and news articles on the old girl.

I fear this all sounds way more negative than my true feelings about this boat. Perhaps I can say it this way, sailing old designs like this is a different aesthetic that simply sailing for sailing sake. It is a different pace and a different skill set than you would expect sailing newer designs, which frankly are far better sailing boats in all quantifiable ways. But sailing old boats pull at your heart in ways no new boat can, and requires a different set of sailing skills which are challenging enough to be interesting even if you are not going very fast.

But to me owning old boats is a bit like owning an old dog, which you have owned since she was a pup but she is now is old, blind, deaf and cantankerous. She snaps at you every time you try to pet her. And yet you have owned and loved this dog since both of your youths, and so keep trying to pet the old girl just the same.

In other words, as negative as I may sound, I truly loved owning and sailing 'Indian'. You have not said what you want to do with Indian. As a daysailer and overnighter, she would be great in an area with 10-12 knot prevailing winds and mild currents, and as long as you had plenty of time to get where you are going.
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  #534  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

If I go through it the aft cabin (raise quarter deck a tad and extend under cockpit) on my boat would not be cavernous, more like a cozy cave/using up a huge amount of waste space while giving better access to engine and lastly a separate space for a member of the crew, specifically captains cabin/radio room/chart room/etc. If I continue my cockpit combing back to the corners and raise the quarter deck a tad, the 7" bulwarks would hid most of this so from an esthetic point of view it would barely be noticeable, from a functionality point of view it would have al sorts of advantages.
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  #535  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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The problem Brent is that your idea of "badly designed" is just your opinion derived from a very narrow and limited amount of yacht design work. I suspect you are limited in the shapes you can get with your building method so you spend most of your time trying to justify that shape. Your method is very clever and I admire you for that. But the method limits the shape. It's not a bad shape but it's just one shape and there are many other shapes that work and some may offer improvements in performance over your stock shape. Your constant attack on other boats and the people that own them is tiresome. Be proud of what you have developed and HTFU.
If you check the origamiboats site you will find origami boats of a wide variety of shapes, wide sterns ,narrow sterns ,canoe stern, wide bows, narrow bows, deep deadrise , shallow deadrise, single chines ,multi chines, radiused chines, etc etc. The one shape myth is just that, a myth, began by Michael Kasten who knows so little about the subject that he continues to decree impossible what we have been doing since 1980; perpetuated by those who have little or no understanding of origami boat building and no experience with it ,who have done nothing to educate themselves on the subject .
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Hart:
I make it my business to know that stuff. I have one client now for a new 60'er where we have looked at "synthetic" or Aramid, PBO rigging. No decision on it yet. PBO is kind of "old" now. There are newer fibers available. So little time. So much technology to digest.

My rule of thumb is that a carbon fiber mast will save you half the weight of the alu extrusion. Wire rigging weight is on top of that. Still with the Cheoy Lee, a heavy, big motor sailer, I was expecting some change I the feel of the motion at least if not a real change in feel of stability. But I was wrong. Mind you I'm only going by the owner's comments and I did not sail the boat before and after myself although I have sailed that model on a couple of occasions. I have a hard time believing there was not some noticable change. I don't mind being wrong. I do mind not knowing.
Friends a who have gone from a steel mast to an aluminium one have not seen a huge change . They have all said the change was barely noticeable
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Hartley:
Many thanks for posting the spar drawing. Beautiful drafting. Lovely lettering. The designer was a very sklilled man. I can tell he loved his work by the way he drafted.
It was drawn the year I was born.

I did some wood sticks for some of my early designs. I have those drawings and I find them very beautiful. I'm a bear for good drafting and I have always held myself to a high standard in that area. I am lucky to have had some very good drafting mentors over the years. Maybe I'll get one of my spar drawings digitized and you can compare them.
On the subject of wood sticks, I have a question for the woodies. As spruce is more rot prone than fir,and the hollow wood spar invites rot to a high degree, perhaps we should consider how they prevented rot in old sailing ships, by putting in salt shelves between the frames and dumping salt in, to sit on the shelves and slowly pickle into the wood, Would it not be a good idea to glue three sides of a box section mast together, then dump a lot of salt in before gluing it up? Perhaps it is a good time to try an experiment, by soaking a couple of pieces of spruce in strong salt brine , drying it out, then gluing it, to see if the salt affects the strength of the glue line? Any thoughts from the wood experts?
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Lookin' lovely..... but where's the cavernous aft cabin that's a "Must" these days??

Seriously, somebody needs to build this baby.. wish it were me. Curious as to how the keel support (when extended) will be engineered...
This looks like the kind of rudder which could give a huge improvement in downwind control on a Catalina or a Vega, which have an even better transom angle for this type of rudder. A skeg would make it far tougher. It would also greatly simplify self steering, autohelm steering and inside steering.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
This looks like the kind of rudder which could give a huge improvement in downwind control on a Catalina or a Vega, which have an even better transom angle for this type of rudder. A skeg would make it far tougher. It would also greatly simplify self steering, autohelm steering and inside steering.
You hit on one of the two reasons that I gravitated to a transom hung rudder. As you note, the first reason is ability to build a simplified self steering system with a rudder mounted, vertical axis ,servo actuatated by a angled axis vane. That servo would also allow a smaller autopilot and less electrical usage for the autopilot. The second attraction is the ability to unship it and repair it at sea.

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent:
Yes I see from your web site that your hulls are not all identical. I suppose if you were willing to add even more darts/chines you could do just about any shape you wanted. I just prefer the freedom of dictating my own shapes that often require compound curvature.

Your Genoa 55 looks very nice.

No. Jeff's rudder is better off without a skeg. This way it can have some balance area to it and that will reduce the loads on the AP. He doesn't need a skeg to mkake it strong. Maybe it's carbon.

" steel mast" Oh my.
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