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post #551 of 1160 Old 06-07-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf,

Where are you at in the marina in PL? I'm going to try to talk the spouse into stopping there on the way home from the SJ's in a few weeks.

Marty

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post #552 of 1160 Old 06-07-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
My boat is the Captain Cicero a carvel planed boat designed by William Atkin.....I saw another Captain Cicero, the boat all around, but lapstrake planked attributed to Colin Archer (the Atkin design came first) in Sweden.
I think you got the history wrong..
Colin Archer (22 July 1832 8 February 1921), from Norway.
Built all (almost) his boats in carvel, because it give a stronger construction that can carry more (external) ballast.

William Atkin (1882-1962), must have been inspired by Colin Archer (not the other way around)

Colin Archer was great designer in his time.
His double-enders are developed from the traditional Norwegian double-enders.
The most significant change he made was to add external ballast (iron) bolted on the outside of the keel.
Colin Archer where among the first Norwegian designers/builders to make detailed drawings for his designs, so his works are still available.

Similar designs where designed/built, but the these where built from half models, and very little of that is preserved.

According to this article
Quote:
William Atkin scaled down Archer's 47-foot (14 m) Regis Voyager, a pilot boat, to make the 32-foot (9.8 m) Eric , and in 1934 the 38-foot (12 m) Ingrid.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
I think you got the history wrong..
Colin Archer (22 July 1832 8 February 1921), from Norway.
Built all (almost) his boats in carvel, because it give a stronger construction that can carry more (external) ballast.

William Atkin (1882-1962), must have been inspired by Colin Archer (not the other way around)
Knuterikt:

While I agree with most of what you wrote, and had been thinking that Wolf had it switched, there is one point I would like to touch on, Lapstrake construction is actually stronger for the weight than carvel- allowing lighter frames and thinner planking for any given strength. Colin Archer in his writings said that he went originally to carvel planking (and also double planking on his yachts) because the edges of the lapped planks was more vulnerable to damage in hard use.

Colin Archer was an amazingly scientific designer, endorsing and experimenting with many of the leading edge theories of his day. He was very aware of wetted surface and was know to have tweaked anc calculated hull forms to minimize wetted surface. My sense is that he would have also been aware of the wetted surface concerns with lapstrake consctruction.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ski:
I'm with you on that one. But maybe the owner did not have the sensitivity to feel the difference. It's a bit like handing me a new golf club. My swing is never the same twice so how am I to evaluate a new club?

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post #555 of 1160 Old 06-07-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Wolf,

Where are you at in the marina in PL? I'm going to try to talk the spouse into stopping there on the way home from the SJ's in a few weeks.

Marty
I am in slip C-69, for the rest of June. If I am not still at PL then, I will be in the area, might even be anchored in Ludlow Bay.

On a different note to elaborate on my mast step, I have taken a closer look and measurements. The cabin sole the end of the mast goes through is a solid plank which spans more than 3 frames, a bit more than 1 1/8" thick, frame measurement was about what I said, here is a pic taken by the builder. That steel plate on top of the keel is about where the mast goes.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-07-2013 at 12:13 PM.
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post #556 of 1160 Old 06-07-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
I think you got the history wrong..
Colin Archer (22 July 1832 8 February 1921), from Norway.
Built all (almost) his boats in carvel, because it give a stronger construction that can carry more (external) ballast.

William Atkin (1882-1962), must have been inspired by Colin Archer (not the other way around)

Colin Archer was great designer in his time.
His double-enders are developed from the traditional Norwegian double-enders.
The most significant change he made was to add external ballast (iron) bolted on the outside of the keel.
Colin Archer where among the first Norwegian designers/builders to make detailed drawings for his designs, so his works are still available.

Similar designs where designed/built, but the these where built from half models, and very little of that is preserved.

According to this article Colin Archer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This is the boat, all the specs fit the Atkin Captain Cicero across the board (length, beam, draft, deck layout, etc) except hull manufacture...except for the hull it looks identical to my boat , I don't think William Atkin would take an existing lapstrake design, redraw it for carvel and call it his own....if anything it was an error on the part of the owner and/or the builder (built 1972).
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Knut is correct. Atkin was inspired by Archer's designs. That's where the THISTLE and ERIC designs came from. I believe he writes about this in the IDEAL series books.

You do not have to change or "re-draw" a design to build it in lapstrake construction. It's just a builder's choice on how he wants to plank the boat.

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Atkins routinely adapted earlier designs. Most of his work was derived from traditionally evolved working watercraft, or designs by other designers. Most of the working watercraft and designs by others that influenced his work tended to be bigger more 'burdensome' boats, and so required adaption to be used as yachts.

Translating a larger design intended to carry a lot of cargo, into a smaller yacht is not an automatic process. The strength of Atkins work was the ability to adapt a traditional working watercraft design to be a pleasure vessel with improvements in sailing ability and ease of handling, while retaining the visual qualities and many of the virtues of the of the bigger and wildly heavier precedent designs.

He was not the only designer doing this type of thing. But he was certainly one of the better ones following this approach.

This other version of the Captain Cicero, has been customized in a number of ways besides the lapstrake planking. That said, some of Atkins designs were intended for lapstrake construction so your boat may be the customization. Its interesting that this boat has one less set of shrouds than your boat. Its also very odd that the chainplates would have been led to channels, and that the light boards are mounted that far aft and on the coach roof where the jib would block the leeward light.

Jeff


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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-07-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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post #559 of 1160 Old 06-07-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by tommays View Post
I know a LOT more about bicycles than boats as i have designed and produced some very good ones in a high tech steel called NIVACROM which is pretty much at the pinnacle of bicycle tubing

There is nothing more funny than fairly overweight people insisting on having a super expensive carbon bicycle especially when you consider that the carbon frame could be 2.5 pounds and the Steel with a NICE PAINT job 4 pounds
I don't agree with this, I'm a big believer in carbon fiber for bicycle construction. Remember when the non carbon bike companies were either saying "steel is real" or were replacing thin wall aluminum frames every year? I still have my Santana nivachrome tandem as I couldn't afford a carbon tandem and I think it has the best "ride" in the business. But steel is real heavy and thin wall aluminum fatigues too rapidly unless you go to the engineering and production extremes as Klein did. As to the a value of weight reduction for an over weight amatuer athlete, which would you rather hike in heavy go-to-war boots or lightweight hikers?
Oh well, you're talking the to off topic king here, so I'll shut up.
John
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

This thread and the research I have done to understand it has given me many new tools to decide what boat I would be most happy owning. I haven't gotten beyond sail area / displacement or length / displacement, but i am still learning. Thank you all.
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