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post #591 of 1160 Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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I think Knut might have it right. Calling a boat a "Colin Archer" is a bit like calling the vacuum cleaner a "Hoover". If you just insert "type" after "Colin Archer" it makes perfect sense.

Although I'm not sure how you would get away calling a boat with a transom a "Colin Archer" anything.
Yes but no..

Colin Archer is most famous for his rescue boat design (double ender) where the first boat was named after it's designer.

The first boat was designed and built in 1867, a clinker built one.
The first Pilot Boat was built in 1870.

In 1873 his first sailing ship was launched (designed by Colin Archer, different builder)

The first sailing ship designed and built came in 1875.
He designed 23 sailing ships, built 5 himself and 14 was built by other builders.

In 1883 the first carvel built pilot boat with iron keel was built.
In total 50 pilot boats, in Norway at this time we had "competitive piloting" the first pilot to reach the ship won the job..

in 1892 the polar ship Fram was launched

In 1893 the first rescue boat was launched.


1/3 of his total boat production was pleasure craft's not all of them was double enders. Pictures / drawings of some of his boats.

Hervor 1884


Mignon 1889


Lady from 1895


Utowana 1902

Last edited by knuterikt; 06-11-2013 at 06:10 PM. Reason: adding pics
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post #592 of 1160 Old 06-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

True, but in North America Colin Archer is known, famous actually, for his double enders, not the boats with transom sterns.

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post #593 of 1160 Old 06-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Great photos Knut. I have never seen those before. Thanks for posting. They look like boats designed to the old "tonnage" based rules for handicapping. Note the forward overhangs on the two latest ones indicating an effort to reduce DWL. The old rating rules were basically L+B+D=rating in tons. When "L" was taken at the DWL we begin to see overhangs forward and aft to reduce DWL. "D" was usually a factor of "B" given the difficulty measuring depth when the boats were in the water. This meant that true draft went unmeasured. Sail area also was not even factored in to the rule until later. So huge rigs were the norm.

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post #594 of 1160 Old 06-12-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob, I think there are several things at play in Colin Archer's choice of hull form. As you suggest these are probably 'raters', designed around some basic form of a tonnage rule.

But Archer was also a proponent of the 'wave line principle,' which was precurser of the 'Metacentric Shelf theory'. For those reading this who are not familiar with these theories, designers were concerned that their designs changed trim with heel angle, especially as many of these boats would have long over-hangs which were likely to come assymetrically into contact with the water as the boat heeled, causing longitudinal changes in trim.

Designers wrestled with ways of analyzing and preventing this trim change. The 'wave line principle,' and 'Metacentric Shelf theory' were methods of addressing these concerns. These methodologies mostly impacted stern sections in ways that minimized contact with the water except at speed where water would be dynamically sucked up the counter.

These methods of balancing the boat with heel so it did not change trim, did improve the behavior of the boats on which they were used. But with the advent of computer analysis these methods have been shown to be relatively imnaccurate.

None the less, the shape of the end on the Colin Archer fan tail yachts would seemingly suggest that the ends were shaped from the pet theories of their day.

Respectfully,
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post #595 of 1160 Old 06-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob-
I wish I could be here for your Port Ludlow thing so you can get an idea of what I have been talking about and I could get some better input from you, but I will be in SF by then. I found a crew who is flying up beginning of July to help get boat ready do sea trials etc and I will be leaving the PNW end of July or before.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

That's too bad Wolfy. It would have been fun to see your boat and nice to have met you. Another time.

Jeff:
Yeah, I think we are definately looking at two sides of Colin Archer in those pics.
Archer had his wave theory which he applied to his lifeboats. But clearly these transom sterned boats offer physical proof that Archer played with the typical racing yacht form of the day and that form was based on a tonnage rule.

The funny thing is that while the white hulled cutter has a convex or "clipper" type bow this was considered acceptable. But the dark hulled cutter has a spoon type bow which in the day was seen as ugly. I'd say it was the other way around. But I'm 100+ years too late to have my opinion count.

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Jeff:
Yeah, I think we are definately looking at two sides of Colin Archer in those pics.
Archer had his wave theory which he applied to his lifeboats. But clearly these transom sterned boats offer physical proof that Archer played with the typical racing yacht form of the day and that form was based on a tonnage rule.

The funny thing is that while the white hulled cutter has a convex or "clipper" type bow this was considered acceptable. But the dark hulled cutter has a spoon type bow which in the day was seen as ugly. I'd say it was the other way around. But I'm 100+ years too late to have my opinion count.
Bob,
I see what you mean.

David,
While it sounds like disappointing news that you won't have a chance to meet with Bob face to face, it sounds like great news that you are finally going to be able to leave the PNW for your next round of adventure. Good sailing my friend....

Jeff


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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Hold on there Jeff: There are a lot of people who would consider not having to meet me face to face very good news.
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post #599 of 1160 Old 06-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Will miss this thread.

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
The funny thing is that while the white hulled cutter has a convex or "clipper" type bow this was considered acceptable. But the dark hulled cutter has a spoon type bow which in the day was seen as ugly. I'd say it was the other way around. But I'm 100+ years too late to have my opinion count.
Something to remember is that the opinions of the time tended to be based around the speed of the tea-clippers and (much like they are today) around what was winning races.. and clipper-bowed yachts from Fife, Logan, et al were up front with the best of them.

I suspect it was work on the various hull-balance theories that Jeff describes that helped make clipper-bows "ugly" in the eye of the beholder, by giving explanation to why many clipper-bowed yachts of the era were such a pig to helm in strong winds. Perhaps Colin Archer would have agreed with you, Bob.

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