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  #601  
Old 06-12-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Hart:
My point was I think the opposite. The clipper bow profile was seen as aesthetically acceptable for probably the reason you cite, i.e. the speed of the clipper ships. Good call on that. It handn't occurred to me. It was the spoon bow that the old timers saw as ugly. Funny in that we see a spoon bow like a Concordfia yawl and to my eye at least it looks beautiful.

Out:
We cabn make this thread last as long as there are people asking questions about design. I'm not going anywhere. I got an invite this morning from the ORACLE AC team for an all expense paid trip to SF to be their guest at the ORACLE camp with a potential ride on a chase boat to watch the big cat sail. I said thanks but I'd rather stay here on the beach and walk my dogs.
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  #602  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

At this point, I have taken this about as far as I think may be useful. I readily admit that this version is very iteosyncratic reflecting the fact that it was developed solely with my preferences in mind.

I want to say that there are elements of this design which Bob councilled me against. The mainsheet system is more complex than Bob had recommended and the head runs a bit against Bob's advise as well. In both cases I understood where Bob was coming from, but in the case of the mainsheet, it reflects my bad shoulders and sailing style, while the head change is simply about me wanting a little more floor space in the shower......

But also, wanted the design to address my thoughts from the earlier Blue Jacket 40 thread. If any of you read my comments on that thread, I was very disappointed in the design of 'Blue Jacket 40' that Island Packet is building as a 'modern performance cruiser'. I saw this as an opportunity to explain what I would do differently than BJ 40.

On the other hand the Blue Jacket is aimed at a broader audience than my version below, which is narrowly focused on my own personal tastes. Now if only I enough cash laying around, If only....

But perhaps it might make sense to look at one final iteration, a version which is less iteosyncratic and so more aimed at being a production design.

In any event here is the full set of drawings as they stand for 'My Version':










Deck Plan


I would really like to once again thank Bob Perry for all his help with this. Without his help this thread would not have been as complete and the design evolution gotten this far.

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I'd like to thank you both for these efforts.. it's been a treat watching the process..

Glad you went for the double spreaders!

Now for the nitpicking:

Make mine fixed keel, please, no need for the lift (draft or complication wise)

On the aesthetics side, love the way you retained the essential 'look' on the hull; the whole concept of a traditional, beautiful old style 'yacht' with a high performance underbody lurking unseen below appeals to me greatly. My only change, I think, would be to not use the ramped front of the coachhouse.. I think the 'look' would be further preserved with a more truncated cabinfront, perhaps along the lines of a Niagara 35.

She's lovely as she is, but I think the whole 'illusion' would be more complete that way. Just my opinion, of course. Hey - we could 'paint' a gaff on the main so that from a distance she'd look like a gaff and tops'l rig.... (Kidding!!)

Anyhow, as I've said before, someone needs to build this one...
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
I'd like to thank you both for these efforts.. it's been a treat watching the process..

Glad you went for the double spreaders!

Now for the nitpicking:

Make mine fixed keel, please, no need for the lift (draft or complication wise)

On the aesthetics side, love the way you retained the essential 'look' on the hull; the whole concept of a traditional, beautiful old style 'yacht' with a high performance underbody lurking unseen below appeals to me greatly. My only change, I think, would be to not use the ramped front of the coachhouse.. I think the 'look' would be further preserved with a more truncated cabinfront, perhaps along the lines of a Niagara 35.

She's lovely as she is, but I think the whole 'illusion' would be more complete that way. Just my opinion, of course. Hey - we could 'paint' a gaff on the main so that from a distance she'd look like a gaff and tops'l rig.... (Kidding!!)

Anyhow, as I've said before, someone needs to build this one...
Ron,

I think that most folks (especially on the N.A.West Coast) would opt for a fixed keel. It would certainly be less complex and less expensive. But here on the East Coast where I happen to have spent my sailing carreer, the ability to reduce draft to around 5'-6 opens a lot of doors and makes running the intercoastal a less stress free experience.

The forward end of the cabin was something that I had wrestled with and debated with myself. I do not really have a very firm opinion on it. There was a part of me that thought that the vertical face was more in keeping with the earlier design studies and fit into the evolution better than the wedge. But a part of me thought that a vertical face seemed incongruous with more modern sail plan and stern on the design. Also the wedge made single-handed sail folding easier but that is such a nit pick that its probably not worth mentioning....

Anyway, its not all that hard for me to redraft the forward portion of the cabin and I can put it up here for discussion.

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Ron, .... Anyway, its not all that hard for me to redraft the forward portion of the cabin and I can put it up here for discussion.

Jeff
It's always weird how one's 'eye' sees something or wants to see something. The irony in this case is that I prefer look of Bob's Esprit 37 over the Valiant 40.. The 37 has a cabin shaped more like yours above on a (at least visually) similar hull to the Valiant.

The solution is easy... clearly custom build, we'll just do one of each!
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
The solution is easy... clearly custom build, we'll just do one of each!
Now there's a great idea!
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Hart:
My point was I think the opposite. The clipper bow profile was seen as aesthetically acceptable for probably the reason you cite, i.e. the speed of the clipper ships. Good call on that. It handn't occurred to me. It was the spoon bow that the old timers saw as ugly. Funny in that we see a spoon bow like a Concordfia yawl and to my eye at least it looks beautiful.
I do agree with you. And in case anyone thinks this might be some local abberation specific to Archer's part of the world, FWIW here's a couple of examples I see on a regular basis:

1. Sayonara (1897) - The full-keel clipper-bowed Fife after which the "Sayonara Cup" was named:



2. Rawhiti (1905) - A spoon-bowed Logan design with cutaway forefoot, specifically built for and winner of the 1907 Sayonara Cup:



So there's the transition: From full-keel clipper-bow in 1897 to spoon-bowed "modern" racer not 10 years later! ..and right through the 20's and 30's a clipper-bowed yacht was never again the winner of the Sayonara Cup.

I guess at that stage the old timers were left sitting on the spectator boats sucking on their falsies... Heady times they were for yacht design.
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Last edited by Classic30; 06-14-2013 at 02:49 AM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff,

Is the head shower an all in one? Of course, now one is getting into personal opinions.......At that length, I would try to seperate them if possible as Jeanneau has done to a few in the 35-40' range. Gives one to a degree a wet locker/shower all in one, yet does not hinder one from using the most important part of a head area!

I would also go with faster, that a fixed would be best here. BUT, being as there are a few channels locally that do get rather shallow at times. a dagger board as drawn might be nice. Especially for places like Fishermans bay on lopez, where the draft is 5' at a zero tide, I max sread I recall seeing is -2.4 to just over 9'. One can get in with a 7.5' draft, but depending upon where one moors at the resort if you moor there, you WILL be hitting bottom as a few folks did 3 yrs ago with C420mkII's and the deep draft option. I was close with 5.6' of draft at the lowest of low tides! But that 2.5' at LOW tide, not too many are getting in and out of that place!

Marty
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff, your version looks terrific, but I share Ron's opinion on the front of the cabin trunk and would prefer a vertical face. I just think it would look more "shippy".

I will say I envy you for having the knowledge and design skills to be able to design your own dream boat!

I'm curious to see the interior drawings of the Wolf version. Are there any updates?
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

In my defence, I was 28 years old when I drew the cabin trunk for the Valiant 40. It was my second design for grp construction. I didn't know much but I was confident. When I saw the first Valiant 40 deck I thought, "Shitski! Did I draw that?" Then I went back and looked at the drawing and the answer was, "Yes kid. You did draw that." Somebody once called it a "shoe box on a banana". But it served to teach me some very valuable lessons regarding cabon trunk design. I think if you look at the cabin trunks on the Valiant 32 and Valiant 47/50 you can see that I learned quickly.

Ironically, when Valiant decided to add the Esprit to the line as the Valiant 39 (they added a bowsprit) They had me design a new deck for the boat, one with a boxier cabin trunk.

One feature I try to avoid is a cabin trunk forward face that is neither a "ramp" not a step. I prefer a definite step with a near vertyical face
(perpendicular to the sheer at that spot or maybe raked a hair more) or a gentle slope that is easy to walk up. I think I nailed it on the Esprit. Jeff's looks like it would beasy to walk up but just barely. Aesthetically I think I might prefer a chopped off cabin trun forward. Maybe Jeff can do a modified profile and we can take a look at that option. But keep in mind Jeff drew the boat for himself and the way you see it is the way he wanted it. So there,,,,
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-14-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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