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  #621  
Old 06-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff
You mention the risk of an outboard rudder sucking ir down the low pressure side . How do you feel about the option of a cavitation plate on both sides , just below the surface, such as those used on outboard motors? Regardless of such surface air, the high pressure side is still diverting a huge weight of water , generating a huge side force.
I have never had a problem with such surface air being sucked down, in 38 years of sailing with outboard rudders.
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  #622  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Brent: you live in a cave it seems. I can design a carbon fiber rudder that would rip the entire back end off a boat before it would break. They are monocoque and they can be as "massively strong" as you care to build them, strength vs weight is always a consideration. But even a "massively heavy" carbon rudder would be far lighter than one of your weldments. And,,,,ta dahhh,,,they don't rust. But I agree with you. There is a place for your approach. You have your home builder market and good for you. Home builders need a designer who has done all the "dirty work" of actually building a boat. You've got me there. I can't build anything. Your way is one way. There are many other ways. I take pride in seeing my designs built by skilled yacht builders. I have my own niche.

I love beautiful yachts.

But I'm not here to try and convince you, just to let other readers and posters know that you represent an extremely narrow and semi-educated perspective when it comes to engineering of yacht structures.

Here is a pic of WILD HORSES, welded alu hull, carbon deck and deck structures, carbon spade rudder and a family of proven offshore cruisers ready to take WILD HORSES offshore again. This boat is a very comfortable rocket, beautifully balanced and a joy to sail, a peach under power around the dock. I'm very proud of this one. Beautiful isn't it?

Just curious, glad all those rudders don't break off, but why do so many of your boats end up on the rocks?
The steel keeping my skeg on is, at 60,000 psi tensile strength, 2.7 million pounds tensile strength.
And you say a carbon figleaf rudder is strong enough to take the stern off my boat , stonger than 2.7 milion pounds tensile strength?
Ya sure , and do you also have some ocean front property for sale in Kamloops?
What's the price tag on all that Carbon fibre? Enough for me to cruise for a decade? Would I give up a decade of full time cruising, to be able to go marginaly faster? Not a chance!
I notice plastic boaters fear hitting logs, etc in the night, and often worry about getting in after dark. Would I give up care free, moonlight winter sails, for a marginally faster sail, in daylight only? Not a chance!
My boats sometimes go aground because they are not used as marina queens, and do a lot of cruising, sometimes in uncharted waters. If you aint been aground ,you aint been around. Yes, some of their skippers are piss poor navigators. I dont choose my clients on that basis , neither do you.The first owner of a 36 was my demolition test pilot. Any other boat wouldn't have survived as long in his hands. Nothing proves a boat strength like a piss poor navigator- demolition test pilot. How they sail is out of my hands. Are you claiming that owning a Perry design automatically makes the skipper a good navigator , no experience neccessary?
People choose my designs for the freedom from worry about hitting anything, over going marginally faster, at the price of constant worry about hitting anything. With my first boat, I had to worry about such things .When I switched to steel, and drasticaly reduced such worries my enjoyment of cruising went up drastically, far more than any enjoyment which going marginally faster would have given me.
That is why my boats cruise so much, and dont cling to marinas, waiting for fair weather sailer days, or seasons.
In 38 years with steel rudders, I havent had a rust problem. As long as your zinc is on and in good contact, it has to go first, before the rudder can start corroding. Outboard rudders can be easily removed, hung in a tree and painted , with no need or an expensive haulout.
Readers should know they have an alternative to super expensive boats , which you have to constantly worry about hitting anything with, deck leaks and gear pulling out of the decks, and have the option of a marginally slower boat, which is extremely worry free, on which nothing breaks . The choice is theirs. My clients choose the latter.

I live on the BC coast, cruising year round, while those with more fragile, trendy, and expensive boats go to work to pay the moorage, and loans needed to own and maintain them. I consider their lives "living in a cave" far more than mine.They are far more likely to be your clients than mine. I love to wake up in a secluded anchorage, turn on the traffic report, and listen to what they are doung to pay for that fragile plastic boat they bought to impress us with . I cut a fart in their honour and go back to sleep for an extra hour or two, thoroughly "impressed."
Later, I get up and enjoy my latest "cave," pristine , deserted anchorages, which they work all year to spend a couple of weeks in.
Efficiency is relative to what you are trying to accomplish.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-15-2013 at 08:24 PM.
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  #623  
Old 06-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Mirrors?
I'm more of a throw pillows. macramed whiskey bottles and doilies kind of guy.
After all, you should have figured out by now that I am the sensitive type.

I try to aim for 24" side decks and work from there. 28" sounds yummy to me.
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  #624  
Old 06-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Mirrors?
I'm more of a throw pillows. macramed whiskey bottles and doilies kind of guy.
After all, you should have figured out by now that I am the sensitive type.

I try to aim for 24" side decks and work from there. 28" sounds yummy to me.
An extra 6" of cabin room (25" side decks) is one of those things that should have been done at building....now my limitations are what I can do now on a budget.

Back too sails. I know laminated sails perform better, I have actually been looking at Load-path sails..but how is there comparative longevity to Dacron for extended offshore cruising. I have been told they don't hold up very well to UV.
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Old 06-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf, Laminated sails really do not make sense for the way that you use your boat. A well cut crosscut, broad seamed Dacron sail should work fine for you.

Jeff
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  #626  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Wolf, Laminated sails really do not make sense for the way that you use your boat. A well cut crosscut, broad seamed Dacron sail should work fine for you.

Jeff
Thanks....thought so....there was something earlier in this thread addressed at me "I bet you you still use Dacron sails" and went on to talk about laminated sails. I am familiar with the longevity of Dacron, but did not know enough about laminated to pose an argument. I would like to find the particulars of what would make for the ideal Dacron sail....for my applications.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

A good sailmaker should be able to advise you, but your boat has a lot more drag and a lot more weight than most modern designs. Because if that the sail cloth would want to be slightly on the heavy side for a 30 footer and the sail cut slightly 'powerful' rather than flat cut. You do not want to over do the power since your boat is initially a little tender. You will want a 'hard, dense weave, cruising cloth' rather than a 'soft cruising cloth'.

If you are going offshore on a regular basis, you will want seams with the cloth lap edges folded and stitched under (it adds weight and harms sailing ability, but stands up better to flapping.) If you are going to the tropics, there are threads which have better UV characteristics and you may want to opt for them. You will want spreader patches on all your sails, and you can add stick on chafe cloth where the seams touch the shrouds when reaching. You will want oversided reef patches and heavy webbing reinforcement on your clew and reef clew grommets. You will want full length battens set horizontal so that they do not jamb and you can avoid a custom track on the mast.

If you do not have a vang, make sure that your sail maker knows that since the sail will have way more twist than ideal. (Another reason to have full length battens) You will probably want a loose footed mainsail since you are singlehanded and it makes R&R-ing the sail way easier. You may want a spectra strop at the clew to reduce stress on the boom.

You may want a single reef on the foot of your genoa if you do not gave furling and guide rings for a downhaul on your hanks.

That is all that comes to mind....
Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I had UK laminated sails on my boat for ten years and they held up perfectly. But for offshore work and durability I think dacron is the safer material. But Wolfy, if you find a good lam sail cheap that would fit I sure wouldn't pass it up.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
A good sailmaker should be able to advise you, but your boat has a lot more drag and a lot more weight than most modern designs. Because if that the sail cloth would want to be slightly on the heavy side for a 30 footer and the sail cut slightly 'powerful' rather than flat cut. You do not want to over do the power since your boat is initially a little tender. You will want a 'hard, dense weave, cruising cloth' rather than a 'soft cruising cloth'.

If you are going offshore on a regular basis, you will want seams with the cloth lap edges folded and stitched under (it adds weight and harms sailing ability, but stands up better to flapping.) If you are going to the tropics, there are threads which have better UV characteristics and you may want to opt for them. You will want spreader patches on all your sails, and you can add stick on chafe cloth where the seams touch the shrouds when reaching. You will want oversided reef patches and heavy webbing reinforcement on your clew and reef clew grommets. You will want full length battens set horizontal so that they do not jamb and you can avoid a custom track on the mast.

If you do not have a vang, make sure that your sail maker knows that since the sail will have way more twist than ideal. (Another reason to have full length battens) You will probably want a loose footed mainsail since you are singlehanded and it makes R&R-ing the sail way easier. You may want a spectra strop at the clew to reduce stress on the boom.

You may want a single reef on the foot of your genoa if you do not gave furling and guide rings for a downhaul on your hanks.

That is all that comes to mind....
Jeff
Thanks, this will be very helpful. I do not plan on single handing, will be spending most of my time in the tropics. As far as stress on the boom, my boom is laminated red fir. Considering the first things sailmakers look at when assessing a sail is the condition of the stitching, I want to make sure I use a stitching designed to stand up better to UV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I had UK laminated sails on my boat for ten years and they held up perfectly. But for offshore work and durability I think dacron is the safer material. But Wolfy, if you find a good lam sail cheap that would fit I sure wouldn't pass it up.
Bob, I did find a good source of laminated sails cheap (Load-path)....but the same source sells Dacron sails cheaper ( called "off shore racing" Dacron sails). My my main is about 30 years old...doesn't look nasty baggy or anything and by Carol Hassey's standards I was told it had a couple years use left in it. This will give me time to look around, learn a bit more about sails, my boat, save up money and find an inexpensive (cheap implies quality) sail maker.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-17-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

People in the tropics are using black awning material, as it resists UV much better. I have black poly pipe on my shrouds which has been in the sun for 37 years and is as good as the day I put it on. White would have broken up in three years. I imagine black sail thread would have similar UV resistance, as white polyester is basically transparent fibres. Similarly, dark sailcloth is far more UV resistant than white.
Friends, who have cruised across the Pacific several times, hated battens of any kind, after having used them. You dont want any kind of battens on a cruising sail. Your jib doesnt need one , neither does your main.
A flatter cut on a well trimed sail heels a tender boat far less.
A big roll of peel and stick sail repair tape will be one of the best purchases you can make for offshore cruising. It welds itself on. A hand crank sewing machine is another very good investment. Any heavy duty domestic machine can be converted to hand crank , cheaply, and will do. Good sail thread will go thru far more layers than rough sail thread. Get some from a sailmaker.
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