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  #631  
Old 06-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I suspect that an outboard rudder, by gaining the extra leverage from being much further aft, more than compensates or any risk of lost efficiency from sucking air down its low pressure side.
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  #632  
Old 06-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
People in the tropics are using black awning material, as it resists UV much better. I have black poly pipe on my shrouds which has been in the sun for 37 years and is as good as the day I put it on. White would have broken up in three years. I imagine black sail thread would have similar UV resistance, as white polyester is basically transparent fibres. Similarly, dark sailcloth is far more UV resistant than white.
Friends, who have cruised across the Pacific several times, hated battens of any kind, after having used them. You dont want any kind of battens on a cruising sail. Your jib doesnt need one , neither does your main.
A flatter cut on a well trimed sail heels a tender boat far less.
A big roll of peel and stick sail repair tape will be one of the best purchases you can make for offshore cruising. It welds itself on. A hand crank sewing machine is another very good investment. Any heavy duty domestic machine can be converted to hand crank , cheaply, and will do. Good sail thread will go thru far more layers than rough sail thread. Get some from a sailmaker.
I guess the Tambark sails do more than just look good, so basically classic boat, classic color, with not so classic cut. There are more ways to stiffen a sail than with battens. This boat never did have battens on it and we have been round and round in this thread about the usefulness of them....looks like I have ended up where I started (not wanting battens)....though I have learned enough to know now to pay more attention to and/or have a better idea what to look for and/or what questions to ask than before.
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  #633  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Tanbark sails generally have a shorter lifespan than a good quality white Dacron. Tanbark is considered a novelty cloth and so is not made to the same standards as a higher performance sail cloth. Atkins drawings show roach so he at least intended for the boat to have battens. I don't know where Brent finds his stock of contrarians but the current offshore cruising standard mainsail has battens to increase the life of the sail,decrease heeling, and give better performance.
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  #634  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Tanbark sails generally have a shorter lifespan than a good quality white Dacron. Tanbark is considered a novelty cloth and so is not made to the same standards as a higher performance sail cloth. Atkins drawings show roach so he at least intended for the boat to have battens. I don't know where Brent finds his stock of contrarians but the current offshore cruising standard mainsail has battens to increase the life of the sail,decrease heeling, and give better performance.
The Atkins drawings were for a rig with no fixed backstay and an a boom that went out over the stern....my present rig has fixed backstays and a much shorter (15') boom. The space for a roach, if any, is extremely limited, 12" from mast to backstay at head and 24" from clue to backstay. I would think that the Tambark color is not limited to poor quality cloth, it should be possible to get Tambark sails made of higher performance sailcloth.
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  #635  
Old 06-18-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf,

By actual measurement on the drawings with your shortened boom, the difference in sail area between the the hollow leech that is required to go battenless and the amount of roach that you can get without having to worry about the battens hitting the backstay, comes to over 15% of your mainsail sail area or roughly 8-10% of your overall effective sail area. That is a lot of sail area to give up. Whatever you do is of course up to you, but I want you to understand that the sail area being lost is not insignificant. So in addition to shortening the life of the sail by not having battens, you are also giving up a lot of reaching ability, or the ability to use a smaller, more convenient genoa for example.

Regarding Tanbark sail cloth, you need to understand that there are comparatively few manufacturers of quality sail cloth in the world so the options are limited by these few weavers. And they are influenced by the fact that Dacron is not dyed the way cotton or other fabrics are colored. In dacron the color comes from compounding the color into the polyester molicules, displacing some of the actual polyester itself. So, because of the way that dacron works, the addition of color means that there is less 'structural content' in the fibers that make up yarns that make up the threads, that the sail cloth is woven with.

Because of that, a dyed dacron sail cloth starts out being a little more stretchy for any given weight, than a plain white dacron, and quicklly becomes even more stretchy over time. Compounding this problem is that you cannot temper dyed dacron in the same way as you temper conventional sail cloth. The way sail cloth is made, the thread is woven and then tempered under controlled condition in which the fabric is heated, which shrinks the thread and makes a tighter weave and the fiber stronger and more durable.

Because of that, once the compromise is made to dye the yarns , the sail cloth companies make an assumption, that anyone buying a dyed dacron is looking for a 'comfortable hand' rather than fully optimized structural dacron sail cloth. In other words, the sails start out less stable, (more stretchy), which is never a good thing since it means reefing sooner as the wind builds, and shorter lived.

The industry refers to these dyed dacrons as novelty products and when I researched this for a friend a few years back, there were no sources for fully structured tanbark dacron. Its just the way it is....

Jeff
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  #636  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Thanks Jeff. I didn't know that about Tan bark sails. I just knew I didn't like them.
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  #637  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob,

It just one of those odd things that I ended up researching a few years back. It scares me sometimes how many things I have researched over the years. In the process, I spoke to quite a few sail makers, was referred to a couple of sail cloth manufacturers, including one who made Tanbark fabric and spoke to them as well. They were all pretty unanimous in their comments about tanbark dacron or any dyed dacron for that matter.

You will probably get a kick out of this part, what triggered the research on tanbark sail cloth was an aquaintance who wanted to sail around the world on a Tayana 37. We both conjectured that tanbark might have better UV characteristics, and so that triggered the research. It turned out, even that just was not the case.

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff,

I too had always heard that the darker colors had better UV resistance even though it always seem contrary to what I would have guessed since lighter colors reflect the rays better. I always wanted the tanbark on my Tayana 37 since it just might provide better visibility from a freighter's pilothouse view point helping the boat stand out from the surounding white caps.

One other comment about UV resistant thread is that I've heard that while that thread my indeed outlast the standard thread, it does put more stress on the material that it is sewed into causing some issues. FWIW Not sure it that is even true.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

In uesd to have a collection of the old IDEAL series books put out by MOTOR BOATING and SAILING. They were full of Atkin designs. On some of the sail plans Atkin wrote,
"Sails are power, Buy good ones."

Unfortunately I loaned those books to a guy with an old Atkin boat and he never brought them back.
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  #640  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I have heard two contrary view points on battens and sail life......It has been said that the most common sail repair is from batten pockets (this would probably be on relatively short battens unlike the long ones I was considering.
I has also been said batten-less sails are more likely to wear at the leach, I have also been told this can be averted with a leach tape. On my batten-less sail the stitching at the leach may be starting to go in places....but then again the sail is 30 years old and has logged quite a few sea miles.

I had originally thought I would replace the batten-less sail I have, but will consider both options. Keep in mind the sailing I plan to use this for will be offshore cruising.
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