Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 65 - SailNet Community
 245Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #641 of 1155 Old 06-18-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 2,323
Thanks: 54
Thanked 47 Times in 44 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I've been told much of the issues regards full length battens and wear can be mitigated by have proper batten pocket construction and having battens be inserted from the front(luff) of the sail with the batten attached to the car so the car not the sail is handling the forward loading. ?Is this true?

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #642 of 1155 Old 06-18-2013
Senior Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I have checked into the cost of having a sail track system that would allow me to have full battens and for my mast that means I would be spending over $1500 in addition to the cost of a new sail. My mast is laminated wood (basically solid) with an external T-track. t has been proposed that I use long battens

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-18-2013 at 09:25 PM.
wolfenzee is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #643 of 1155 Old 06-18-2013
Senior Member
 
blt2ski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,862
Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 12
   
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf,

Something to think or toy over, Being as many seem to have a reef in there sail while off shore. a main with some roach to it, will not effect you as much in this sense from hitting th eback stay etc. The only time my for the most part fully roached main per phrf rules go is a PITA is in really light winds ie under 5 or so. I can eliminate some of the roach catching the back stay with no top full batten. BUT, being as you will have your main up for days at a time, vs me for a few hrs in the evening/day while out daysailing/racing, I can choose the setup for the top batten, ie none, light one or heavy one. For you, once you are on a tack you should not be tacking a lot vs my type of sailing, so the roach hitting the back stay is not that big of a deal frankly! Now tacking up haro straight or equal.......that might be an issue for either of us. But once on the open ocean per say..........

I will also still recomend you look at Ullmans CAL cloth sail. A laminate that is panel sewn like dacron. I can show you my 140 if you are in PL over labor day. Nice sail for very little more than dacron, works better in light winds etc. Will handle higher winds than dacron with out stretching also. A string on the other hand.......I still am thinking a CAL main would have been just as good as my string, at half the cost......next time.......

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
blt2ski is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #644 of 1155 Old 06-18-2013 Thread Starter
Moderator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,904
Thanks: 5
Thanked 152 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I have checked into the cost of having a sail track system that would allow me to have full battens and for my mast that means I would be spending over $1500 in addition to the cost of a new sail. My mast is laminated wood (basically solid) with an external T-track. t has been proposed that I use long battens
Wolf, one last time...if the full length battens are horizontal in the sail rather than at an angle you don't need a special track. My mainsail is nearly twice the area of your main and has very stiff full length battens heavily loaded, and I do not have or need a special track and the battens do not jamb. Forget that you ever heard about a special sail track system because that has nothing to do with full length battens. Absolutely nothing.

And even if the battens do not overlap you backstay, you lose a lot of you sail area without having roach.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay
Jeff_H is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #645 of 1155 Old 06-19-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,248
Thanks: 1
Thanked 101 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Re:Brent's comment on the outboard rudder

I would disagree with you Brent. In my experience in designing boats with outboard rudders they operate in the turbulent flow of the transom when the transom drags at higher speeds and this can make the outboard rudder more prone to ventilating more rather than less. If I wanted a rudder that would not be prone to ventilating I would tuck it well under the counter so the root was immersed at all speeds.

When I designed the replacement outboard rudder for the 73' ATALANTA I was quite surprised at the amount of turbulence at the surface. In fact, in retrospect I should have continued the rudder foil up higher onto the transom to help reduce this. You see this rudder placement on almost all high performance boats today, rudder tucked under the counter. Although there are certainly benefits of hanging the rudder off the transom on smaller boats where you want the rudder as far aft as possible. But you also see the same, high performance smaller boats going to twin rudders so the leeward rudder is well immersed at speed when the boat is heeled.

Originally ATALANTA, a Bill Tripp Sr. design, had two rudders. One was forward attached to the keel. The other was a hinge up rudder hung on the transom intended to be used for downwind sailing when the forward rudder was not effective. Over time the owner realized the outboard rudder gave better conrtrol all the time and with the IOR penalty for movable appendages also impacting the situation the forward rudder was welded in place. The outboard rudder was welded permanently in the lowered position. All steering was then done by the outboard rudder. But being a hinged rudder (like on a Hobie cat but much bigger) the outboard rudder lacked some finesse in the transitional area to the upper cheeks. My replacement rudder had better foils and was one piece and a more elegant and lower drag design.
Attached Thumbnails
Atalanta.Seattle.02.jpg  

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 06-19-2013 at 04:25 PM.
bobperry is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #646 of 1155 Old 06-19-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,587
Thanks: 20
Thanked 40 Times in 38 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Tucking a rudder under the counter makes self steering and inside steering horendously more complex and failure prone. These factors in an offshore cruising boat, far away from marine supplies and boatyards, far outweigh any slight increase in speed. Having an outboard rudder has enabled me to build my self steering, far more effective than most horendously expensive models; mandatory on boat with inboard rudders, and my inside steering, for around $25. People who have never cruised off the beaten path on a shoe string budget are often totally incapable of comprehending such priorities, and thus unqualified to design for anyone on a tiny budget ,heading off the beaten path..
My wind vane, my autohelm and my inside steering all operate via the trimtab on the trailing edge of my rudder, a bullet proof sytem, far stronger and simpler than any attempt to power an inboard rudder with a servo.
What I have proposed is a set of nearly horizontal plates, on the sides of the outboard rudder, just below the waterline, tipped slightly up at the stern to follow the flow to the stern wave , to stop air from being sucked down the lee side of the ourtboard rudder ( like the ones on an outboard motor).Air bubbles would simply trail off the plates before being sucked down any further.
The turbulent flow of the transom is only on the surface. It doesn't go very deep, unlike the rudder. It has no effect on sucking air down the rudder. Again, the amount of water being diverted on the high pressure side of the rudder is a huge turning force, air on the lee side being far less relevant. Continuing the foil up a bit further can be done with any outboard rudder , easily.
When I put a rudder much further aft on my first boat, I simply removed the keel hung rudder, ending up with less wetted surface than I began with.
What is important is to make sure the ruuder rakes forward, to pull water up it, instead of air down it, not raking aft, which would invite air to suck down it, possibly on both sides. This is a common screwup by those who put trendyness ahead of common sense.
I met a Frenchman who had an outboard rudder on his 35 ft aluminium boat. He put two dagger boards alongside them on the transom, angled out 25 degrees.. When I asked him how effective the dagger boards were, he said that with the daggerboards down, it is imposible to get her to go anywhere but dead downwind. To change course he had to raise the daggerboards a bit. It made it impossible to broach.
Maybe something to consider on an offshore boat. Could be retrofitted.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-19-2013 at 05:59 PM.
Brent Swain is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #647 of 1155 Old 06-19-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,587
Thanks: 20
Thanked 40 Times in 38 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

If your roach touches your backstay , you are least likely to be reefed in light conditions, when the main will be fully up, the boat rocking in the swell, and the roach being dragged across the backstay on every swell, sometimes for days on end.
Roachless is the best way to go for an offshore boat. It will reduce your weather helm considerably, and greatly extend the life of your sail.
I sailed from BC to New Zealand with my flag flapping in the breeze the whole way, arriving there with it in good condition. That's a lot of flaps.The damage from a bit of flapping is greatly over rated. UV is the biggest killer of sailcloth, far greater than any flaping. A good drop in sail bag held up by lazy jacks will do a lot to extend the life of your sails, far more than worrying about a bit of occasional flapping.
Friends who removed their battens and let the roach flap, say they got a much longer life out of their mainsails than they ever did with the battens in.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-19-2013 at 06:03 PM.
Brent Swain is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #648 of 1155 Old 06-19-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,587
Thanks: 20
Thanked 40 Times in 38 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Tanbark sails generally have a shorter lifespan than a good quality white Dacron. Tanbark is considered a novelty cloth and so is not made to the same standards as a higher performance sail cloth. Atkins drawings show roach so he at least intended for the boat to have battens. I don't know where Brent finds his stock of contrarians but the current offshore cruising standard mainsail has battens to increase the life of the sail,decrease heeling, and give better performance.
I met an Alaskan on Raiatea who had a furling headsail which had alternating tanbark and white sailcloth panels . He said the white was UV rotted but the tanbark was in good condition. You can see this on US flags in the tropics. The red is intact, while the white stripes are far more dammaged. Even that little bit of colour stops a significant amount of UV.
The problem is people mistake heat for UV. It is anything but. They are on opposite ends of the colour spectrum. Heat is infrared. UV is the opposite.
White polyester is not white fibres , the fibres are transparent, allowing UV to pass right thru, almost unhindered by any pigment. Any pigment or colour resists the passage of UV. That is why black plastic lasts far longer than white or clear, including in sail fibres.
The only increase in performance battens give a cruising boat is a slight increase in sail area, paid for by the loss of miles you get by having to go back to work to replace a batten damaged sail more often, while your battenless friends continue cruising..
Cruising standards for mainsails are set by those who have a huge financial stake in ensuring a steady supply of repair work, fixing sails damaged by battens, UV , etc. Those who question their disinformation live freer lives.
I have been cruising 11 months a year since my mid 20s. Those who let salesmen dictate their "standards " ( for their own personal financial embellishment) work the opposite way, work 11 months a year and take one off. Marinas are full of them.
For what my goals are ( freedom) I dont think I have been doing it all wrong .
You can judge the value of advice by taking a critical look at what it has done for the person offering it. Contrarians live contrary lives, contrary to spending most of it working.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-19-2013 at 06:31 PM.
Brent Swain is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Brent Swain For This Useful Post:
wolfenzee (06-19-2013)
post #649 of 1155 Old 06-19-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,248
Thanks: 1
Thanked 101 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

A roachless, battenless mainsail will noit do anything to reduce helm. It may even make it worse.

But from ewhat I see on your web site you are the king of the cheap. That's not the market I try to appeal to. You can have it. You and I have some of our priorities in different places. I like my boats to be beautiful and graceful and still make it around Cape Horn. You don't appear to care abouit aesthetics at all. Thaty's fine, we have different approaches. I certainly do not want water rushing upwards on my rudders. I want the water flow to be perpendicular to the stock or as close as I can get it. You can call it "trendy" but I call it efficient and in accord with the choice of foil.
Attached Thumbnails
Ct65.jpeg  

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #650 of 1155 Old 06-19-2013
Senior Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

My batten-less leach has lasted for 30 years, I have not decided one way or another what I will do for a main....yes I have saved alot of money in alot of ways. I am going to have a sailmaker measure all the particulars of my rig and when I have a new main cut I will do it up right. I am conferring with a sailmaker in Sarasota now. Considering the importance and longevity of a mainsail, it's worth doing right. The idea of "recycling" "retired" racing sails isn't a good one for mains...but if I can find jibs that fit I might go that route. I am appreciative of all the input, though it has added to my confusion...in figuring what sail to get I have several things that must be kept in mind...I am not wealthy, I am not a racing sailor (I don't get all wound up about trying to squeeze and extra 1/4 knot out of my sails), the sail will be used for offshore cruising

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-19-2013 at 07:41 PM.
wolfenzee is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bob Perry's Tragic Loss smackdaddy General Discussion (sailing related) 16 07-09-2013 10:57 AM
What's your dream boat? dovetailnj General Discussion (sailing related) 58 07-08-2013 12:48 PM
What's your dream boat??? DavidB.UK General Discussion (sailing related) 4 06-22-2013 04:06 PM
Perry's new Sunday blog bobperry General Discussion (sailing related) 12 11-07-2011 06:05 PM
A boat dream! pjboots Boat Review and Purchase Forum 28 03-22-2007 03:10 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome