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post #651 of 1160 Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolfenzee,Heres my take on your boat:Shes fine,good lines.If your happy rowing away from her at the end of the day then mission accomplished.Full batten mains on a traditional boat is like putting a plexi glass seat on a shaker rocking chair.Have fun.
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post #652 of 1160 Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Have fully batten main with single line reefing brought aft with a dutchman. Did this in a setting where I could not otherwise feel comfortable single handing ( cruise off shore with just the bride so take turns singling) and not spry with old knees. With my boat which now has done a short transit ( norfolk va to r.i) that system makes sense and works great. We varied between single and double reefed frequently. Sometimes several times in a single watch. Always felt in control even with the solent poled out all the time. But Wolfie for your boat if you're going forward and using jiffy reefing you may attend to the KISS principle. There is much to say in favor for a battenless main. Less complexity and more in keeping with the aesethic of your lovely craft. Less to break or go wrong. Just my 2cents.
P.s- had sail maker put in tags with grommets so can tie in reefs if stuff breaks.

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post #653 of 1160 Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Even if I stick with batten-less I can get a far more efficient cut than I have now (even the same exact sail 30 years newer would be an improvement)
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post #654 of 1160 Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
You still don't get it. This is not new knowledge!
The sails are not flat triangles. The centroid of the flat triangle has nothing to do with the center of pressure. The center of pressure is controlled by sail shape. You control sail shape with battens. Without battens you lose control of the shape.This is not theory. Look at any performance oriented boat. Open your eyes and look around. And please do not lecture me on what it takes to make a well balanced boat. Do you really want to debate those areas with me? I don't think you have the amunition. And I don't think anyone would be discussing performance objectives while sailing with a 30 year old mainsail. Longevity issues yes, but not performance or helm balance.

But I give up. Join Brent and the luddite gang. " It's cheap so it must be good." No, it's just cheap. Sail around with a sail with a shape that looks like a catcher's mitt with max draft at
60%. Lovely. It's inefficient as hell but it will last you 20 years. Maybe. Good for you. So you sail for 20 years with a sail that is a POS. Bravo!

And jak, do you really think that having battens even full battens in the main has anything at all to do with the aesthetic elements that make Wolf's boat pleasing? That's silly. There is far too much going on in the design of any boat to let battens play an aesthetic role. I could flash ten photos of traditional boats in front of you and in five minutes you couldn't tell me what kind of battens any of the boats had.
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-20-2013 at 01:27 AM.
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post #655 of 1160 Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wolf:
You still don't get it. This is not new knowledge!
The sails are not flat triangles. The centroid of the flat triangle has nothing to do with the center of pressure. The center of pressure is controlled by sail shape. You control sail shape with battens. Without battens you lose control of the shape.This is not theory. Look at any performance oriented boat. Open your eyes and look around. And please do not lecture me on what it takes to make a well balanced boat. Do you really want to debate those areas with me? I don't think you have the amunition. And I don't think anyone would be discussing performance objectives while sailing with a 30 year old mainsail. Longevity issues yes, but not performance or helm balance.

But I give up. Join Brent and the luddite gang. " It's cheap so it must be good." No, it's just cheap. Sail around with a sail with a shape that looks like a catcher's mitt with max draft at
60%. Lovely. It's inefficient as hell but it will last you 20 years. Maybe. Good for you. So you sail for 20 years with a sail that is a POS. Bravo!

And jak, do you really think that having battens even full battens in the main has anything at all to do with the aesthetic elements that make Wolf's boat pleasing? That's silly. There is far too much going on in the design of any boat to let battens play an aesthetic role. I could flash ten photos of traditional boats in front of you and in five minutes you couldn't tell me what kind of battens any of the boats had.
I never said I had decided against battens..just that I was considering all possibilities....and if aesthetics were a consideration (which there are not)...I like the looks of full battens.
A mainsail is one of those things that will be with you a long time so is worth spending money on (a cheap one is just a disappointment and ends up costing more in the long run)

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-20-2013 at 03:44 AM.
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post #656 of 1160 Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ok Wolf. I think when the time comes that you find a good, used main you should be open to whatever batten arrangement it has. I can't imagine you finding a good, used battenless main. You can modify the batten arrangement of a battened sail but there isn't much you can do to modify a battenless main short of altering the basic "E" and "P" dims. And I hope my post last night did not leave you with the impression that my decisions are beyond economic considerations. I have to factor in economics too. While I loved my 6 liter, V8 Mercedes it made no sense to keep driving it as gas prices shot up so 2 years ago I gave up the Mercedes for a Subaru Outback. It's a great car but I never pretend it's a Mercedes. But I can afford to drive the Subaru.

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Gotta agree with Bob. No question battens improve performance even if roach not added. No question my new sail in a non Dacron fabric doesn't have the "hand" a more traditional fabric would have and won't even a few years from now. No question with the blocks attached to the sail, draft lines, a zillion tailtales, attachments for failsafe reefing, cummingham etc. it looks cluttered and purpose driven. Do make the concession to leave third reef out when coastal. Was just trying to respond to the tenor of Wolfie's prior posts. I like doing at doing hull speed ( or better) as much as possible. I get more pleasure out of being on my boat when it's working to it's peak performance for the conditions we're in. Wolfie said in prior post that 1/2 kts doesn't mean that much to him. I disagree but respect his point of view.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Out:
I call getting that last tenth of a knot "good seamanship". There is, for me and probably you at least, great satisfaction in knowing the boat is working at peak performance. Sloppy sail trim annoys me.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Makes me feel all is right with the world. Drives the admiral crazy. She's grabbed me time to time "Sit down already- look at me not the damn sails- I'm talking to you". O well.

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Not sure my wife even knows there is another way to sail. I like to fiddle with trim but sometimes you can dial it in and sit back for a while.

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