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  #661  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Totally with you both, (and my wife is rolling her eyes too.... )
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  #662  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

It might be possible to find a used main that might sort of fit and will make do in a pinch (the only "off the rack" that is anywhere close is a Cape Dory 37)...I might be able to make enough alterations so at least it will be better than an old blown out sail.....when it comes time to get a replacement main I will have a new one cut, I will not cut corners and I will use accumulated data from assorted input as well as sailing my boat and deciding what I need. I can find an inexpensive sail, not because it's cheap/poorly made, but because the expensive sails are expensive partly because people are willing to pay the money (as is the way in the marine industry)

As far as battens wear on sails, I believe that is a combination of short battens and poorly reinforced pockets, as far as batten-less leaches wearing prematurely, that too is a result of manufacture and/or can be overcome by a reinforced leach tape.
Before this discussion started, my personal preference was a combination of full battens at the top 1/3 of the sail (?) and long partial battens on the bottom 2/3 of the sail(?)....we have gone round and round and round about this, my view on battens has traveled the full gamut and ended up where I started....I have learned alot about about sail construction, materials, and even my question about stitching was answered.

Yes the efficiency of a main is important and I don't want to skimp there. Ahead of the mast the boat has been changed from the original 2/3 fractional to the option of being able to switch over to a masthead jib to a cutter (or switch back to anything). This is where I should be able to find "retired" racing sails to fit with out modification and "recycle" them.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 06-20-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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  #663  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wolf:
You still don't get it. This is not new knowledge!
The sails are not flat triangles. The centroid of the flat triangle has nothing to do with the center of pressure. The center of pressure is controlled by sail shape. You control sail shape with battens. Without battens you lose control of the shape.This is not theory. Look at any performance oriented boat. Open your eyes and look around. And please do not lecture me on what it takes to make a well balanced boat. Do you really want to debate those areas with me? I don't think you have the amunition. And I don't think anyone would be discussing performance objectives while sailing with a 30 year old mainsail. Longevity issues yes, but not performance or helm balance.

But I give up. Join Brent and the luddite gang. " It's cheap so it must be good." No, it's just cheap. Sail around with a sail with a shape that looks like a catcher's mitt with max draft at
60%. Lovely. It's inefficient as hell but it will last you 20 years. Maybe. Good for you. So you sail for 20 years with a sail that is a POS. Bravo!

And jak, do you really think that having battens even full battens in the main has anything at all to do with the aesthetic elements that make Wolf's boat pleasing? That's silly. There is far too much going on in the design of any boat to let battens play an aesthetic role. I could flash ten photos of traditional boats in front of you and in five minutes you couldn't tell me what kind of battens any of the boats had.
Ya Bob actually I do,But its just my opinion.Part of the pleasure of traditional boats is that they are "traditional".To me it just looks something is 'off' over all.In the total picture.Now I am definately not in the luddite camp.I have sailed on an Irens trimaran and on friendship sloops and many variations of boats in between.I LOVE sailing fast.I love a well designed boat that meets its intended mission.My favorite boat my family owned was a Peter Norlin Avance 36.It had a full battended main with a BIG roach.I loved making that boat go and just looking at that main and the 110%.It felt close to perfection.I also like getting that extra 1/10th of a knot out of a boat.One of the Friendship sloops I sailed on would respond well to tweaking the trim.It had a vertical cutt 'traditional' main.It was oceanus cloth and made by Nat Wilson.All the running rigging was modern fibers that looked like manila hemp 3 part lines.Wood blocks etc.But still 'looked' like it did in 1912 when she was built.
Jake
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Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Out:
I call getting that last tenth of a knot "good seamanship". There is, for me and probably you at least, great satisfaction in knowing the boat is working at peak performance. Sloppy sail trim annoys me.
I call sacrificing strength, ease of handling and reliablility( seamanship) for a tenth of a knot, "Bad Seamanship"
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  #665  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

wolf, you have to bear in mind that battens of any kind are localizing stresses on a sail, and whenever you do that, you will tend to also cause damages to occur at the stressed points unless someone has been very careful about reinforcing them.

I've seen battens disappear from some brand name sails, as the pockets debateably weren't secured properly or couldn't be secured properly. And as sails age, the 'dotted lines' formed by the stitching at the battern pockets always seem more apparent. I'm sure all of that can be addressed by "don't flog your sail" "reef early" and adding proper reinforcement, which is going to mean "too heavy, too expensive" to some customers and makers as well.

So like anything else, battens are a balancing act.

They're not magic, they're just going to create hard flat bands across a sail. How hard, how wide, how that changes with windload or matches the curve of the sailcloth itself, all a balancing act and a challenge to the loft and designer.
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  #666  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jak:
I think that is called "faux traditional" kind of like "simulated leather".

I have a buddy who has a Jag XKE. He took out the original engine and put in a Ford engine. He calls the car "A Jag you can aFord". The car handles much better with the far lighter Ford engine and of course the reliaibilty is better. But it's not a Jag anymore. It's a faux Jag. To each his own. I'd take that car in a second if he'd sell it. For similar reasons of my own I am not too keen on "replica" boats. They generally miss the mark. Love looking at the big J Boat replica's though. Lots of high tech going on there and they look fabulous, even with the nestest in sail fabric technology.

We have something in common. I think the favorite boat I have ever owned was my Peter Norlin designed Cirruis 7.8. I owned that boat for 15 years, far longer than any other boat of mine. Sold it about four months ago. Now summer is almost here in the PNW I am beginning to miss that boat.
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-20-2013 at 05:01 PM.
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  #667  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
A roachless, battenless mainsail will noit do anything to reduce helm. It may even make it worse.

But from ewhat I see on your web site you are the king of the cheap. That's not the market I try to appeal to. You can have it. You and I have some of our priorities in different places. I like my boats to be beautiful and graceful and still make it around Cape Horn. You don't appear to care abouit aesthetics at all. Thaty's fine, we have different approaches. I certainly do not want water rushing upwards on my rudders. I want the water flow to be perpendicular to the stock or as close as I can get it. You can call it "trendy" but I call it efficient and in accord with the choice of foil.
Many clients have eliminated a heavy weather helm by eliminating the roach. Kinda completely blows your theory. Theory and reality can be a long way apart.
Give a boat a beautiful sheer line, a good profile, and well matched deck structures, and you can have a beautiful boat, regardless of how much money you throw at her, or dont throw at her. These things add nothing to the cost of a boat. Give her an ugly sheerline and profile and she will be ugly, regardless of how much money you throw at her.
I place a high value on aesthetics, as do you, and many people tell me my boats are beautiful, as are yours.
There is no excuse for a boat being ugly, regardless of the amount of money one has to spend on her. An ugly shape has nothing to do with the cost of the boat. We have all seen some very expensive ugly boats and some very attractive low budget boats. There is also a beauty in function and practicality, especialy while you are enjoying its other benefits..
I dont find flimsy teak or plastic more attractive than welded stainless or aluminium. I dont find flimsy bolted down bow cleats more attractive than a proper stainless mooring bit, especially on a rough night when it is the only thing keeping me out of the surf. It takes cruising experience for a designer to appreciate that kind of beauty. Without it he is only quoting what he has read somewhere.
Such yachty absurdities such as a teak deck , flimsy teak hatches and skylights, and flimsy yachtie hardware, look pretty ugly after a bitt of rough use. I have seen such " decorative priority" boats leaving BC , looking immaculate, but by the time they get to New Zealand they look rough as hell, while the more practical, easier to maintain boats with workboat priorities can do the same trip, and still look immaculate at the end of the voyage. Your boats often contain such yachtie absurdities, mine, rarely .I dont recommend them, you dont discourage them.

"You only get what you pay for " is a used car salesmans line which has been used to sell a lot of lemons and flimsy yachtie hardware to the gullible. The best gear is usually that what you make for yourself. Two doctors I worked for said my $2 sheet blocks are something of which a multi millionaire couldn't buy a better one. My $100 roller furling is far more reliable than commercially made ones costing thousands of dollars, as is my windvane , anchor winch hatches , etc etc. The thinking and expereince which go into a boat do far more to determine how good a boat is, than the amount of money one throws at a boat.
With the rudder so close to the stern wave, with water rising up into the stern wave there is zero chance of it flowing perpendicular to the waterline at that poiunt.
Donald Street asked several designers why they design rudders with a reverse rake on them, despite their having been proven to be far less effective and far more prone to stalling and the only answer he could get was "They look fast and sell boats." Such are the values of some mass market, production boat designers.
One of the things which shock steel boat cruisers, going for a sail on a plastic boat, is the comparative flimsyness of everything on a plastic boat.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-20-2013 at 10:30 PM.
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  #668  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
as far as batten-less leaches wearing prematurely, that too is a result of manufacture and/or can be overcome by a reinforced leach tape.
Reinforced leach tape really would not help at all. Its not the leech tape that wears out. What happens is that the leech is unsupported by battens and so the fabric itself is under higher loading and stretches. That results in extra material in fabric at the leech, which makes the leech want to flap. So, to keep the leech from flapping, the leech line is over-tightened, creating a hook in the leech. That hooking results in greater loads on the adjacent fabric forward of the hook, making the hook progressively bigger. The resulting hooked leech means more drag, weather helm, less projected sail area, and more heeling. To avoid that you need to somehow reduce the loads in that area and that is what battens do. They spread the loads into a larger portion of the sail....


In fact, when a sail gets old and tired, with bad flying shape, its ususally because the leech has stretched moving camber aft. The typical trick to get more life out of an stretched sail is to add full length battens.

Jeff
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  #669  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent:
You don't blow my theories. We have no common ground to discuss technical areas of design.
We part ways big time on boat aesthetics It's probably a subjective thing. Don't see any common ground at all for a discussion on boat beauty either.

I agree 100% with what Jeff said in is last post about leech deformation.
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-20-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent:
Really?
"Many clients have eliminated a heavy weather helm by eliminating the roach."

That's too bad that so many of your clients have had to deal with "heavy weather helm".
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