Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 68 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree245Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #671  
Old 06-20-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Brent:
Really?
"Many clients have eliminated a heavy weather helm by eliminating the roach."

That's too bad that so many of your clients have had to deal with "heavy weather helm".
Some where I read that a battenless/roachless sail helps to reduce weather helm.....the theory being a less efficient sail gave less lift so there was less effort behind the center of lateral resistance. There are better ways to balance a rig.

There has been alot of knowledgeable data input on this thread, the best is from learned individuals having alot of knowledge in high tech coastal or semi-coastal racing sailing....this is great....though the sailing I am interested in is as an offshore cruising live aboard. I have been able to glean alot of bits and pieces that do apply to my boat though....thanks again.
Brent Swain likes this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #672  
Old 06-20-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolfer:
Yeah, you probably read that in something Brent wrote.
I once read about a pig nosed baby in National Enquirer. It was BS. But it was printed.

I think that having battens in a sail lets the sailmaker control the max draft and foil of the sail. Without out battens you just get a "bag o'wind" The key is to move the center of pressure forward in the mainsail and keep the last 30% of the chord running almost straight. (Come on Jeff, draw a picture for me please) This has nothing to do with a simplistic 2 dimensional represention of your sail plan. This is a 3D real world situation. If you can control max draft and move the center of pressure forward you will do more than fooling around with a catcher's mitt main shape. Of course if you are struggling with a battenless main any effort to move the center of pressure forward will help. But that is a bandage on a wounded design.

There is no sailor in the world interested in good performance that uses a battenless mainsail. I know that ids a bold statement and risky but I belive it to be correct until proven wrong. Now we can argue the definition of performance but if you mean VMG over a wide range of conditions than I am correct.

If you want to talk about cruising the world with a 30 year old mainsail then I am not your guy. Talk to Brent he's very big on cheap.

You are welcome. It is your never ending quest for knowledge that drives this thread.
knuterikt likes this.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #673  
Old 06-20-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I don't have time for this silly "your theories" and what's "trendy". What a crock.

I have been busy downloading recipes for coleslaw sauce.
I do have my priorities.

Here Brent , just for you.
You might call it a slow cooker. I call it a crock.
Attached Thumbnails
Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-crockpot.jpg  
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #674  
Old 06-20-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Reinforced leach tape really would not help at all. Its not the leech tape that wears out. What happens is that the leech is unsupported by battens and so the fabric itself is under higher loading and stretches. That results in extra material in fabric at the leech, which makes the leech want to flap. So, to keep the leech from flapping, the leech line is over-tightened, creating a hook in the leech. That hooking results in greater loads on the adjacent fabric forward of the hook, making the hook progressively bigger. The resulting hooked leech means more drag, weather helm, less projected sail area, and more heeling. To avoid that you need to somehow reduce the loads in that area and that is what battens do. They spread the loads into a larger portion of the sail....


In fact, when a sail gets old and tired, with bad flying shape, its ususally because the leech has stretched moving camber aft. The typical trick to get more life out of an stretched sail is to add full length battens.

Jeff
Then why doesnt that happen to your battenless headsail?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #675  
Old 06-20-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Some where I read that a battenless/roachless sail helps to reduce weather helm.....the theory being a less efficient sail gave less lift so there was less effort behind the center of lateral resistance. There are better ways to balance a rig.

There has been alot of knowledgeable data input on this thread, the best is from learned individuals having alot of knowledge in high tech coastal or semi-coastal racing sailing....this is great....though the sailing I am interested in is as an offshore cruising live aboard. I have been able to glean alot of bits and pieces that do apply to my boat though....thanks again.
You are right!
Everyone I know who has eliminated his roach has drastically reduced his weather helm. Theorizing on how the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, wont make it true, no matter how much math and theory you use to prove it. I prefer experience over such theory.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #676  
Old 06-20-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Reinforced leach tape really would not help at all. Its not the leech tape that wears out. What happens is that the leech is unsupported by battens and so the fabric itself is under higher loading and stretches. That results in extra material in fabric at the leech, which makes the leech want to flap. So, to keep the leech from flapping, the leech line is over-tightened, creating a hook in the leech. That hooking results in greater loads on the adjacent fabric forward of the hook, making the hook progressively bigger. The resulting hooked leech means more drag, weather helm, less projected sail area, and more heeling. To avoid that you need to somehow reduce the loads in that area and that is what battens do. They spread the loads into a larger portion of the sail....


In fact, when a sail gets old and tired, with bad flying shape, its ususally because the leech has stretched moving camber aft. The typical trick to get more life out of an stretched sail is to add full length battens.

Jeff
What I found out wears the quickest is the stitching on the seam ends, which leach tape spans, eliminating a sudden horizontal rip along the seam. That is why a leach tape got me an extra 3,000 miles out of a 12 year old mainsail, in squally, strong, trade wind conditions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #677  
Old 06-20-2013
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,762
Thanks: 0
Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

To me, if one needs to reduce the sail area, or leach, something was probably not designed correctly in someway shape or form!

I'll take my 2 full/2 partial batten main over my smaller 4 partial main any day of the week....

If in Wolfs shoes, I would not look for a used main, I would buy a new one. A jib, yes one can find really newish ones that are not blown out. Most racers can legally only replace 2-3 sails a year, so it is usually the jibs, spin then main. So a race main is toast many times comparatively speaking.

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #678  
Old 06-20-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

That's the whole point. Sheesh!
The leech tape stays hard and the rest of the sail bags out. The more you reinforce the leech the worse it gets without battens to tak3e that curl out.

It's like some of you have never looked at a sail uner load before. This is not "theory". Any sailmaker can tell you this.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #679  
Old 06-20-2013
aeventyr60's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Andaman Sea
Posts: 1,655
Thanks: 7
Thanked 35 Times in 33 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aeventyr60 is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Given that Wolfie wants to go offshore and be SAILING for a number of years I think it is false economy to try and re work a used sail. By the time he runs around finding a decent one, recuts, stitches, adds, subtracts battens, I'll bet the cost is pretty close to a new main sail. Try looking at an off shore sail maker with a good reputation, Tasker, Lee etc.

Understand the budget considerations, however, your mainsail is at the heart of what you are undertaking, sailing offshore!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



"Your dreams minus your doubts equals your net worth"

Life is a short journey, filled with emptiness and pain. Get all the sailing and booty you can.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #680  
Old 06-20-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I design all my rigs for a roachless main. It's only when they get disinformation from others that they screw up. One sailmaker I knew had an old couple come in with a bagged out main, and couldnt afford a new one. So he sewed a warp oriented , full width panel, the full length of the leech on. He said it set beautifully after that, and they got many years of good sailing out of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bob Perry's Tragic Loss smackdaddy General Discussion (sailing related) 16 07-09-2013 11:57 AM
What's your dream boat? dovetailnj General Discussion (sailing related) 58 07-08-2013 01:48 PM
What's your dream boat??? DavidB.UK General Discussion (sailing related) 4 06-22-2013 05:06 PM
Perry's new Sunday blog bobperry General Discussion (sailing related) 12 11-07-2011 07:05 PM
A boat dream! pjboots Boat Review and Purchase Forum 28 03-22-2007 04:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:28 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.