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post #61 of 1160 Old 04-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Rat:
Now you are scaring me. Wolf's current boat is a weird boat. It is quite narrow with an L/B near 5.00. It probably flops over and plays dead very quickly in any strong breeze unless you shorten sail quickly. But in a moderate to even a light breeze it might surprise you. This hull deserves some study.

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post #62 of 1160 Old 04-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Paulo:
Don't go away.
You and I have far more in common than we have in,,,,,,,,,the other place.
We did not connect very well on this subject but I know we were on the same track.
My apologies if I offended you.

I work very hard at yacht design. I have done so for the last 52 years. I stand by what I have learned. But I'm a bit rough and crude in my approach to communication. The best I can say in that area is that my dog likes me.
Thanks Bob, no offense taken, I was just disappointed because I don't think that what I was saying was different than what you were saying, just on another scale. That study also showed that the difference between the four keels in what regards performance only due to drag and lift differences were really small. That was obvious on the difference between the times of each one regarding that computerized race.

So in the end what you say is right: The possibility to lower CG is much more important than any small increases in drag, providing the keels are well designed (and the funny part is that I never meant to say otherwise).

For me the only real new was that the difference in drag loss between a fin keel non bulbed (just a foil) and a well designed bulbed keel is smaller than I thought and that in some cases that bigger drag can even be compensated by the superior lift of a bulbed keel.

These are small things but what makes yacht design advance is many times a multitude of small things that put together make a considerable difference.

You are not only a NA but a great guy.

Regards

Paulo


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post #63 of 1160 Old 04-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by desert rat View Post
the formosa has a more bathtub shaped hull. Perhaps steel the hull shape from the flying cloud or the cuty sark.
It would appear your experience with and interest in a variety of boats is similar to your post count.

Sit down, shut up and keep reading - you might learn a thing or two from a preeminent yacht designer.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #64 of 1160 Old 04-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

sorry wont happen again
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post #65 of 1160 Old 04-19-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Paulo:
No, not a great guy, just a flawed, damaged guy who has spent his life trying to understand yacht design. I think that you and I like the same kinds of boats.

You are correct. The whole keel trick is to balance lift against drag against VCG. It is a hard problem. It seems to me, as I look around, that advantages in VCG are more important than advantages in lift and drag. The hard part is to quantify these components and evaluate them over a broad range of sailing situations.

But it's Friday night now, the dogs are sleepy and there is really only one thing on my mind.
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post #66 of 1160 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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...

But it's Friday night now, the dogs are sleepy and there is really only one thing on my mind.
Never said nothing about your loss, but reading your post tears come to my eyes and I thought on my two kids, now grown up, the older the age of your son. I never said nothing because I have no words that can express what I fell toward tragedies like your own or Smack's one. Bad luck seems to have a way to hit at the door of nice guys. There is no justice in this world. Please don't replay to this post. There is no need. I only liked you to know what I feel, particularly about your loss: A great and deep sorrow.

Regards

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post #67 of 1160 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Paulo:
Did you know I have a Portuguese dog? Her name is RUBY and she is my very best friend.
She is extremely smart and very naughty. It's hard to be depressed with Ruby around. We went fishing together this morning. We fish almost every morning.
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Last edited by bobperry; 04-20-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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post #68 of 1160 Old 04-20-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

The design work has been progressing nicely. Even when you start from scratch design is an iterative process with a drawing drafted, and then studied and considered, some time spent thinking about it in the 'worry chair' and then the design is tweaked. In this case we have a dillitante drafting (me) and the Maestro providing the guidance so the iterations may be fewer, than if I were doing this myself.

I think it may be helpful to see some of the interim steps of the process to see how those iterations appear.

So here is an update lines drawings:



And here is a fist look at the updated rig which is loosely modeled on a Folkboat rig, but with a taller foretriangle:



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post #69 of 1160 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Rat:
Now you are scaring me. Wolf's current boat is a weird boat. It is quite narrow with an L/B near 5.00. It probably flops over and plays dead very quickly in any strong breeze unless you shorten sail quickly. But in a moderate to even a light breeze it might surprise you. This hull deserves some study.
Bob it does't flop over and play dead in heavy wind, but yes in light and moderate air she is delightfully suprising To try out my new 180% genny I sailed with it and unreefed main (over 700sqft combined) close hauled in about 20kts of wind. Being that heavily over canvased it brought the boat over to 40degrees with caprail under 3", I still made 6.5ts for 3 hours. If a big gust were to push it over to 45 degrees it would wheel up into the wind.
I had waaay too much sail up on purpose, I'd rather see what the boat could do than wait for it to show me. The only think that broke was the jib halyard which was in need of being replaced anyway.

[QUOTE=Jeff_H;1018976]The design work has been progressing nicely. Even when you start from scratch design is an iterative process with a drawing drafted, and then studied and considered, some time spent thinking about it in the 'worry chair' and then the design is tweaked. In this case we have a dillitante drafting (me) and the Maestro providing the guidance so the iterations may be fewer, than if I were doing this myself.

I think it may be helpful to see some of the interim steps of the process to see how those iterations appear.

So here is an update lines drawings:



And here is a fist look at the updated rig which is loosely modeled on a Folkboat rig, but with a taller foretriangle:

[QUOTE=Jeff_H;1018976]The design work has been progressing nicely. Even when you start from scratch design is an iterative process with a drawing drafted, and then studied and considered, some time spent thinking about it in the 'worry chair' and then the design is tweaked. In this case we have a dillitante drafting (me) and the Maestro providing the guidance so the iterations may be fewer, than if I were doing this myself.

I think it may be helpful to see some of the interim steps of the process to see how those iterations appear.

So here is an update lines drawings:



Jeff I do like the looks of that but I am concerned with the center of lateral resistance, as a cruisng sailor I would prefer a cutter rig. As far as what I have now there are three variations I have play around with 2/3fractional (by design using a "topmast stay" not only was less complex than jumper struts it also allowed a small flying jib/topsail-jib to be flown), masthead sloop (from modification that allowed head stay to be detachable at stem) or cutter (from later mod which allows head stay to be attached parelell to topmast stay) the cutter variation gives me the widest combination of sails.
I own 7 jibs from a 180% Genny to a storm jib (which doubles as a jib topsail), I don't plan on keeping them all, but will "play" with then until I decide what works best.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-20-2013 at 01:26 PM.
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post #70 of 1160 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
I would not sail any boat beyond 30 degrees of heel if I had the choice. Not sure why you have a 180% genoa. I like to keep the biggest headsail under 140%. Overlap has fallen out of favor in the last few years. I certainly would not subject a new genoa to that kind of conditions so long as I expected it to retain any of its original shape. You don't do a sail any favor by carrying it way beyond its intended wind range.

6.5 knots hard on the wind? Amazing! That's as fast as my Esprit 37.

But that's the way I sail and it seems you sail a different way. We both have fun.

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