Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat - Page 70 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree245Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #691  
Old 06-21-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Thanks Smackster.

ICON was designed as a racer/cruiser and has a modular interior that can be swapped around depending on how comfy you want to be for crusing or how light you want to be for racing. ICON has done a lot of cruising inc,luding a nice cruise of the South Pacific on it's way from NZ, where it was built, to Seattle where it lives in Anacortes now. Hull and deck are all carbon fibre and the boat was "cooked" twice during build. We sent Spike to NZ for his graduation present from high school. For a while he worked at the yard building ICON. The phone rang late one night and it was Spike. "Guess where I am Dad." He was on the team taking turns in the oven monitoring the cure of ICON. ICON has a feather light helm, can easily point within 28 degrees AWA and is a rocket in light air narrowly being beat by my NIGHT RUNNER on corrected time in this year's Swiftsure. You could hardly find two boats more different in every way, except the designer. Ouch! I pulled that muscle again trying to pay myself on the back.

The keel is a ss fin with a 10,000 lb. lead bulb. Draft with the keel down is 13.8' and keel up 8.8'. Of course there will be some who will scoff at the idea that this is a cruising boat. But those who have cruised and made passages on ICON would certainly dissagree. And yes, there are battens in the mainsail, big, long, full battens. " Cheap" was never part of my mission as the designer. I was very lucky in that area. The solid s.s. fin was forged in Seattle and cost $40,000. Then it was shipped to the East Coast where it was gun barrel drilled out so that the hydraulic cylinders lifting it were part of the forged fin. There was no one on the Wast Coast who could drill holes that long to the tolerance we needed. Then the fin was shipped to NZ. It has been trouble free.
I did two bulbsn one 1,000 lbs. lighter than the other. ICON raced the Sydney-Hobart race with the lighter bulb but when it got back to Seattle the heavier bulb was fitted and is still on.

You hear talk about "reserved bouyancy". I didn't give ICON much. Wasn't concerned. ICON has no bad habits and is a real treat to drive. I think it is a spectacular looking boat. Ouch!
Attached Thumbnails
Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-icon-bow-shot.jpg   Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-icon-rendezvous.jpg  
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 06-21-2013 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #692  
Old 06-21-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Thanks Faster.
Yes, MERIDIAN is with new owners now and they are just using it for cruising. MERIDIAN went through some extensive redesign a few years back to make it more comfortable for cruising. The cabin trunk was lengthened and the cockpit revised. The mainsail was changed to a Leisure Furl system. It's a great boat, very fast and wonderful to cruise. I took it up to Desolation when my boys were young. There are things about it that are pretty obsolete by today's standards, alu rig, partial skeg and fin type keel with no bulb. But it is still fun to sail and in the light stuff you can crank up the engine and cruise along at an honest 9.5 knots. The original owner of MERIDIAN was Chuck Schiff, an architect. He worked for me in the office for two years and in that time we designed MERIDIAN so he deserves half of the credit. I went to Chuck when we built the new shack on the beach.

I have photos of my beloved Spike driving MERIDIAN when he was about 8 years old.
Attached Thumbnails
Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-meridian-small.jpg  
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 06-21-2013 at 02:48 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #693  
Old 06-21-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Well Brent, if they are all designed for a roachless main why so many of your clients having a problem with "heavy weather helm" your words.
They have zero weather helm with a roachless main, the way I designed her.
One sailed from Cortes Island downwind to Comox, with no one at the helm, and no self steering of any kind. Many people, who have only sailed poorly balanced stock boats, were blown away by the directional stability of my boats.
If they change the sail plan from what I designed, that is their doing , not mine. If all else fails, follow the insructions.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-21-2013 at 05:47 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #694  
Old 06-21-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No Brent, you don't. To wit...look at your designs for the roller furling, the windlass, the blocks, the companionway hatch.

If you think these are aesthetically high value...you're seriously doing it all wrong.

You place the highest value on pure function. Form is not even on your radar.

Now, this is perfectly fine. It's your thing. But, please, for the love of monkeys, stick with the facts. You only make yourself look very silly when you try to be all things.



Brent, the point is, why were your clients experiencing such bad weather helm in the first place? Have you designed a very heavy boat that can only handle a very inefficient sail? Is that good sailboat design?



It blows my mind that you have the arrogance to criticize another designer's boats on aesthetic grounds and "use of yachtie absurdities". Have you ever considered that the "workboat priority" steeler arriving in NZ looks just as did when it left port because, maybe, it looked pretty damn skanky when it left port in the first place?

Your grip on reality is tenuous at best.



This is the problem with this thread. "Less efficient" is "good enough". That's not a "dream" - that's a fear of going to sleep. There's no way to advance design or technology when this mindset is the detente.
Aesthetically pleasing is different for those who buy whatever consumerism is trying to sell them , from those who do their own thinking. Have you ever seen any of my boats, or are you like the biblical "Adam", who named all the animals and praised the beauty of the Garden of Eden, while he was blind?
There is no way to advance design or technology by clinging as desperately to tradition and consumerism as you do, and opposing any questioning of the super expensive, time consuming and bankrupting ways of designing and building boats, which have put cruising beyond the means of so many.
Smackdaddy has been critical on other sites of anyone who challenges the notion that only the rich should be allowed to own good boats and cruise freely. On other sites, he has stated that he considers it "immoral " for anyone who doesn't have a lot of money, to find less expensive ways of going cruising ,and doing so before acumulating a lot of money. He promotes the notion that we should all be morally obliged to live cookie cutter, urban lives, and squander the worlds resources as quickly as possible.
I get much satisfaction in helping low income cruisers get cruising in boats they could never afford otherwise, better boats than the rich are sailing around in, boats which drastically reduce the risk to them and their children from colliding with Fukashima debris in the night. I would get no satisfaction from further enhancing the advantages of the rich.
Friends who spent a winter cruising French Polynesia said in the whole winter they never met anyone with an anchor winch which still worked. They were a mix of bronze gypsy on a stainless shaft with an aluminiun drum on the opposite side with mild steel keys, to be used on galvanized chain, something Eric Hiscock described with the term "Yachtie absurdities". Mine are open, all stainless. You can see every part, any time, no surprises, they simply dont fail.
My furler is covered by the sail so whats to see. They have fewer moving parts than a set of sail hanks. They dont fail either. My hatch design is far easier to get in any out of than the complex abortion which is the sliding hatch, and it is as waterproof as the lid on a pressure cooker, unlike the primitive, leaky tiki arrangement of a sliding hatch and drop boards. Unlike asliding hatch and dropboards you dont have to dissasmeble and reassemble anything when climbing in and out of my hatch in bad weather. That is why round the world racers abandoned sliding hatches long ago. All use waterproof doors. Would you buy a house with a sliding hatch and dropboards, because you consider it "Aesthetically pleasing"? Would anyone?
Efficiency is relative to what you are trying to accomplish. If your goal is a quarter knot of extra speed, at the expense of seaworthiness, reliability, easy of handling( safety) and longevity, then you have a different set of parameters from someone who's goal was strength, reliability, ease of handling( safety) and longevity.
When I saw a huge gold plater pass me, I thought" For what he is trying to accomplish , speed at all costs, his boat is far more efficent than mine. For what I am trying to accomplish, comfort, safety, affordability, the ability to cruise full time on a tiny budget, a boat that lets me cruise full time without huge expenses forcing me on the treadmill so many get sucked into, making reasonable passage times, my boat , my third, each an improvement over the last, over 40 years of hands on experience, my boat is light yearss more efficient for what its purpose is, than that one could ever be.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-21-2013 at 05:07 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #695  
Old 06-21-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,547
Thanks: 98
Thanked 98 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Aesthetically pleasing is different for those who buy whatever consumerism is trying to sell them , and those who do their own thinking. Have you ever seen any of my boats, or are you like the biblical "Adam", who named all the animals and praised the beauty of the Garden of Eden, while he was blind?
There is no way to advance design or technology by clinging as desperatly to tradition and consumerism as you do.
Smackdaddy has been critical on other sites of anyone who challenges the notion that only the rich should be allowed to own good boats and cruise freely. He promotes the notion that we should all be morally obliged to live e cookie cutter urban lives, and squander the worlds resources as quick as possible
I get much satisfactio in helping low incoime cruiser d
Yes, I've seen plenty of pics of your boats and your invented gear (I posted a couple previously in this thread). That's why I said what I said. Please feel free to post photos of your blocks/windlasses/hatches/etc. here and let people decide for themselves how high a value you place on aesthetics.

Wait, was Adam blind? Anyway...

I also encourage you to pull my apparent quotes above from wherever you'd like. I'd sure like to see where I said those things. If you can't produce those quotes - I'm starting to wonder about the accuracy of your quotes from these "blown away friends" of yours who gush over your work.

Time to put some proof behind your words Brent. I get much satisfaction out of people who are honest.

I'll wait.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 06-21-2013 at 04:37 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #696  
Old 06-21-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent:
"Zero weather helm" your words:
Now why would anyone want a boat with "zero weather helm"?

I always design for a few degrees of weather helm. It's just plain good design practice and the boats go to weather better. A dead neutral helm is a PITA to drive to weather. If someone wants to play with the sail trim a bit they can dial out the weather helm and let the boat drive itself. Or, you can trim for optimal trim and then set a bit of helm brake on to deal with the amount of weather helm you want for best performance. If I had a boat with "zero weather helm" I'd fix it my adjusting mast rake. A Canadian client of mine mentioned that his boat had a neutral helm two years ago. I had him add rake to the mast and he gained some weather helm. He's been winning races ever since and he loves the way his boat feels now. He also cruises his boat.

You see Brent, it's not going to work. I don't buy into any of your design ideas and I don't think you have done enough designing to know the difference. You keep trying to justify what you have as the be all and end all to yacht design. I know better. I approach design like I am the perpetual student of design. I am always looking for better ways to design boats. I try to be always learning.

Adam wasn't blind!
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #697  
Old 06-21-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

In the batten vs batten-less debate, The pro batten crowd uses examples of batten-less sails to reinforce their point there are a bit extreme and the batten-less crowd gives examples that defend the negative things said about them. No one argues the point that a battened sail is more efficient than a batten-less sail.

On the point of aesthetics, a fully battened sail with an extreme roach would not look right on my boat....but my backstay would not make that possible. A fully battened sail that would fit withing the confines of my backstay would have a beautiful shape.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #698  
Old 06-21-2013
JomsViking's Avatar
Splashed
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 554
Thanks: 28
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 8
JomsViking is on a distinguished road
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent,
Helping the low income cruiser is certainly commendable!
Having sailed in the Baltic as well as the North Atlantic (Norway, Scotland, Iceland) as well as a nice time Down to the med, all in "wobbly plastic boats" because that was what I could afford, I fail to see your point - it would have been more expensive to build and equip a steel boat (and still is) and no boat whether steel, Alu, or GRP will save your a$$ when you run aground on the cliffs of Norway that's a given (as witnessed by nyself and others).
Having a boat that go well to windward and can maintain a good turn of speed at the same time can be a lifesaver as well, and certainly increases the pleasure of cruising - I remember situations where I was able to sail into a fiord where others couldn't.
Being a bit less young now, and a little better of, I'd still be out cruising faster and cheaper by buying a GRP boat and refitting it with "fancy Commercial equipment" than origami folding it in steel. So if you want to go cruising cheap, fast, and safe now go for an older Perry design, or one of the countless other great designs out there.
The situation might be different in North America, but I doubt it.
__________________
Watch great footage about the story of one manís slow odyssey around the UK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #699  
Old 06-21-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wolf:
I agree. A fully battened main with lots of roach would look odd on your boat.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that type of main for you.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #700  
Old 06-21-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Adam was blind?

This changes everything.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bob Perry's Tragic Loss smackdaddy General Discussion (sailing related) 16 07-09-2013 11:57 AM
What's your dream boat? dovetailnj General Discussion (sailing related) 58 07-08-2013 01:48 PM
What's your dream boat??? DavidB.UK General Discussion (sailing related) 4 06-22-2013 05:06 PM
Perry's new Sunday blog bobperry General Discussion (sailing related) 12 11-07-2011 07:05 PM
A boat dream! pjboots Boat Review and Purchase Forum 28 03-22-2007 04:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:06 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.